Subject: Re: average(?) of spontaneous otoacoustic emissions From: "reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx" <reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:25:18 +0000 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>------=_Part_423_22098920.1344677118652 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Martin and others, 1) After having looked at your 2006 bimodality paper (referenced in your po= st below) I now understand that you were not amused by my recommendation of= an older publication on SOAEs. 2) Who discovered SOAEs? In Section 5.2.2 of Patuzzi's Review in "The Cochl= ea" (Springer, 1996), that honour is attributed to J.P. Wilson (1980) rathe= r than to D.T. Kemp (1978). The two corresponding papers are: A) D.T. Kemp, "Stimulated acoustic emissions ...", JASA 64 (1978) 1386-1391= . B) J.P. Wilson, "Evidence for a Cochlear Origin ...", Hear. Res. 2 (1980) 2= 33-252. In Fig. 2 of paper A, there are, in the waveforms E, F, and G, stationary b= eats (at delays ranging from 15 to 30 ms) which I interpret today as SOAEs = triggered by the tone bursts. In his conclusions, however, Kemp mentioned e= missions lasting "for some tens of milliseconds after impulsive acoustic ex= citation", whereas, AFAIK, SOAEs last typically for much longer times. In Fig. 13 of paper B, Wilson presented "frequency analyses of ear-canal `b= ackground noise` corresponding to subjective tinnitus in two subjects". The= se spectra contained narrow peaks at 1158 and 2610 Hz. Reinhart Frosch, Dr. phil. nat., CH-5200 Brugg. reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx . ----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht---- Von: nombraun@xxxxxxxx Datum: 08.08.2012 14:33 An: <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Betreff: Re: average(?) of spontaneous otoacoustic emissions Dear Bruno and others, Interesting question. With the currently most advanced measurement=20 technique, which has been in use since 1990 (!), the bulk of human=20 spontaneous otoacoustic emissions (SOAEs) was recorded in the 1-4 kHz range= .=20 Therefore an "average spectrum" does not "make sense". There is not even one mode, somewhere in this range. In fact, there are two= =20 modes, one at 1.5 kHz and one at 3 kHz, with a sharp dip in the distributio= n=20 curve at 2.14 kHz. The bimodality appeared first in 1993 in Fig. 6, but without being mentione= d=20 in the text, in: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8113135 A detailed analysis of the bimodality appeared in 2006: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16644155 The data that were recorded by Zwicker's doctoral students Eberhard Schloth= =20 and Christoph Dallmayr in the early and mid-1980s and were later republishe= d=20 by Zwicker and Fastl in 1990 (not 1999; Zwicker died in 1990) are=20 unfortunately outdated. Even the best data that we have today, those that= =20 were collected around 1990, still reflect measurement limits. Yes, SOAEs are perhaps the most thrilling phenomenon in the hearing machine= .=20 David Kemp, who made them to a fact in the late 1970s, should long have bee= n=20 given a Nobel Prize for his work. The reason why this did not happen is as= =20 simple as sobering. The committee would have been unable to say what he=20 discovered. There is still no generally accepted understanding of how and why SOAEs are= =20 generated. Due to several false beginnings in the field of cochlear=20 mechanics, as often discussed on this list, many simply applied the first= =20 law of science: "If we don't understand it, it can't be relevant." Have a nice day. Martin ------------------------------------------- Martin Braun Neuroscience of Music S-66492 V=C3=A4rmskog Sweden email: nombraun@xxxxxxxx web site: http://www.neuroscience-of-music.se/index.htm > Subject: Re: average(?) of spontaneous otoacoustic emissions From: "Bruno L. Giordano" <brungio@xxxxxxxx> Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 15:11:05 +0100 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=3DAUDITORY> Dr. Reinhart Frosch kindly referenced this figure: Fig. 3.12 of Zwicker and Fastl, Psychoacoustics, Springer, 2nd ed. (1999), is a two-dimensional representation (SPL versus frequency) of SOAEs from about 100 normal ears. Best, Bruno On 07/08/2012 1:48 PM, Bruno L. Giordano wrote: >> Hello, > > I would like to take a look at the spectrum of spontaneous otoacoustic > emissions averaged across a possibly large number of normal-hearing > individuals. > > Can someone please suggest a reference? Does an average spectrum make > sense when considering the amount of interindividual differences? > > Thank you, > > Bruno ------=_Part_423_22098920.1344677118652 Content-Type: text/html;charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><style type=3D'text/css'> <!-- div.bwmail { background-color:#ffffff; font-family: Trebuchet MS,Arial,Helv= etica, sans-serif; font-size: small; margin:0; padding:0;} div.bwmail p { margin:0; padding:0; } div.bwmail table { font-family: Trebuchet MS,Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif; f= ont-size: small; } div.bwmail li { margin:0; padding:0; } --> </style> </head><body><div class=3D'bwmail'><P><FONT size=3D2>Dear Martin and others= ,</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3D2>1) After having looked at your 2006 bimodality paper (ref= erenced in your post below) I now understand that you were not amused by my= recommendation of an older publication on SOAEs.<BR>2) Who discovered SOAE= s? In Section 5.2.2 of Patuzzi's Review in "The Cochlea" (Springer, 1996), = that honour is attributed to J.P. Wilson (1980) rather than to D.T. Kemp (1= 978). The two corresponding papers are:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3D2>A) D.T. Kemp, "Stimulated acoustic emissions ...", JASA 6= 4 (1978) 1386-1391.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3D2>B) J.P. Wilson, "Evidence for a Cochlear Origin ...", Hea= r. Res. 2 (1980) 233-252.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3D2>In Fig. 2 of paper A, there are, in the waveforms E, F, a= nd G, stationary beats (at delays ranging from 15 to 30 ms) which I interpr= et today as SOAEs triggered by the tone bursts. In his conclusions, however= , Kemp mentioned emissions lasting "for some tens of milliseconds after imp= ulsive acoustic excitation", whereas, AFAIK, SOAEs last typically= for much longer times.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3D2>In Fig. 13 of paper B, Wilson presented "frequency analys= es of ear-canal `background noise` corresponding to subjective tinnitus in = two subjects". These spectra contained narrow peaks at 1158 and 2610 Hz.</F= ONT></P> <P><FONT size=3D2>Reinhart Frosch,<BR>Dr. phil. nat.,<BR>CH-5200 Brugg.<BR>= reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx .<BR></FONT><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2>----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----<BR>Von: nom= braun@xxxxxxxx<BR>Datum: 08.08.2012 14:33<BR>An: <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= .CA><BR>Betreff: Re: average(?) of spontaneous otoacoustic emissions<BR>= <BR>Dear Bruno and others,<BR><BR>Interesting question. With the currently = most advanced measurement <BR>technique, which has been in use since 1990 (= !), the bulk of human <BR>spontaneous otoacoustic emissions (SOAEs) was rec= orded in the 1-4 kHz range. <BR>Therefore an "average spectrum" does not "m= ake sense".<BR><BR>There is not even one mode, somewhere in this range. In = fact, there are two <BR>modes, one at 1.5 kHz and one at 3 kHz, with a shar= p dip in the distribution <BR>curve at 2.14 kHz.<BR><BR>The bimodality appe= ared first in 1993 in Fig. 6, but without being mentioned <BR>in the text, = in:<BR>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8113135<BR><BR>A detailed analysi= s of the bimodality appeared in 2006:<BR>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed= /16644155<BR><BR>The data that were recorded by Zwicker's doctoral students= Eberhard Schloth <BR>and Christoph Dallmayr in the early and mid-1980s and= were later republished <BR>by Zwicker and Fastl in 1990 (not 1999; Zwicker= died in 1990) are <BR>unfortunately outdated. Even the best data that we h= ave today, those that <BR>were collected around 1990, still reflect measure= ment limits.<BR><BR>Yes, SOAEs are perhaps the most thrilling phenomenon in= the hearing machine. <BR>David Kemp, who made them to a fact in the late 1= 970s, should long have been <BR>given a Nobel Prize for his work. The reaso= n why this did not happen is as <BR>simple as sobering. The committee would= have been unable to say what he <BR>discovered.<BR><BR>There is still no g= enerally accepted understanding of how and why SOAEs are <BR>generated. Due= to several false beginnings in the field of cochlear <BR>mechanics, as oft= en discussed on this list, many simply applied the first <BR>law of science= :<BR><BR>"If we don't understand it, it can't be relevant."<BR><BR>Have a n= ice day.<BR><BR>Martin<BR><BR>-------------------------------------------<B= R>Martin Braun<BR>Neuroscience of Music<BR>S-66492 V=C3=A4rmskog<BR>Sweden<= BR>email: nombraun@xxxxxxxx<BR>web site: <A href=3D"http://www.neuroscienc= e-of-music.se/index.htm">http://www.neuroscience-of-music.se/index.htm</A><= BR><BR>> Subject: Re: average(?) of spontaneous otoacoustic emissions<BR= >From: "Bruno L. Giordano" <brungio@xxxxxxxx>= <BR>Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 15:11:05 +0100<BR>List-Archive:= <http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=3DAUDITORY><BR><BR>Dr. Re= inhart Frosch kindly referenced this figure:<BR><BR>Fig. 3.12 of Zwicker an= d Fastl, Psychoacoustics, Springer, 2nd ed.<BR>(1999), is a two-dimensional= representation (SPL versus frequency) of<BR>SOAEs from about 100 normal ea= rs.<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>Bruno<BR><BR>On 07/08/2012 1:48 PM, Bruno L. Giorda= no wrote:<BR>>> Hello,<BR>><BR>> I would like to take a look at= the spectrum of spontaneous otoacoustic<BR>> emissions averaged across = a possibly large number of normal-hearing<BR>> individuals.<BR>><BR>&= gt; Can someone please suggest a reference? Does an average spectrum make<B= R>> sense when considering the amount of interindividual differences?<BR= >><BR>> Thank you,<BR>><BR>> Brun= o </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></div></body></html> ------=_Part_423_22098920.1344677118652--