Subject: Re: exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free "Article Request" list From: Iftikhar Nizami <nizamii2@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:07:39 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--1352305180-1776717680-1344265659=:46222 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With regard to the very recent comments by Steve Beet -=0A=0A1) "Legitimate= " fees to the journals? First of all, the journals get all of =0Atheir mate= rial at the expense of the taxpayers and/or the authors. Secondly, the =0Af= ees demanded by journals for viewing and/or download of online papers - and= for =0Ainstitutional print subscriptions, for that matter=A0- have become = so outrageous =0Athat an entire movement for fee-free publication has taken= hold (see recent news =0Aarticles in Science or in Nature). The=A0publicat= ion houses=A0- or their clients =0Asuch as IEEE, for example=A0- are in no = danger of going bankrupt anytime soon.=0A=0A2) "Days" is indeed far too lon= g to wait for a relevant paper when a deadline is =0Alooming and some signi= ficant point has to be supported.=A0 Not everyone has the =0Aluxury of time= .=0A=0A3) I note that Steve Beet has an IEEE.org email address, which sugge= sts a =0Aconnection=A0to that organization, which has its own line of journ= als. - Lance =0ANizami PhD, Palo Alto, California=0A=0A=0A=0A______________= __________________=0AFrom: Steve Beet <steve.beet@xxxxxxxx>=0ATo: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LISTS.MCGILL.CA=0ASent: Mon, August 6, 2012 7:23:12 AM=0ASubject: Re: [AUDI= TORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free "Article =0ARequest" list= =0A=0AI don't think this needs to be explicitly set down in the rules of th= e list. =0AHowever, I do suspect that this, and most similar lists, take it= as read that =0Amembers will use a little common sense in deciding when it= is appropriate to =0Amake a request to the whole list. This applies to all= postings, not just =0Arequests for reprints.=0A=0AI too would encourage pe= ople to ask for hard-to-find and seminal papers in this =0Away. In fact I w= ould go further and encourage anyone who comes across such =0Apapers to mak= e them available to the whole list (copyright permitting) once =0Athey've b= een found.=0A=0AHowever, recently (on this list) the requests for papers HA= VE been getting a =0Alittle out of hand, and I've had the distinct impressi= on that some of the =0Arequests have been made out of simple laziness, and/= or unwillingness to pay =0Alegitimate fees to the journals who rely on such= payments to keep their services =0Agoing.=0A=0AI don't think "days" is too= long to wait for a paper which probably took many =0Amonths to be written = and published in the first place!=0A=0ASteve Beet=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Mon, 6 Aug = 2012 05:49:11 -0700=0AMarcelo Caetano <gaiolouvo-auditory@xxxxxxxx> wro= te:=0A=0A> Dear Bruno and list,=0A> my point exactly. I don't agree that ar= ticle requests on the list can be =0A>characterized as abuse. I actually th= ink that it's rather arbitrary to do so =0A>given that, currently, there ar= e no=A0guidelines on http://www.auditory.org/=A0(or =0A>anywhere else that = I'm aware of). Consequently,=A0the way the members use the list =0A>current= ly dictates how the list is used. Maybe we should all discuss and agree =0A= >on guidelines for all the members to follow rather than give our personal = =0A>opinions?=0A> =A0=0A> In time, writing the authors to request PDFs migh= t work, but it can take days. =0A>Sometimes the authors have academic webpa= ges where you can find (and download) a =0A>copy of their publications.=0A>= =A0=0A> Marcelo=0A> =0A> =0A> >________________________________=0A> > De: = Bruno L. Giordano <brungio@xxxxxxxx>=0A> >Para: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx = =0A> >Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 6 de Agosto de 2012 15:02=0A> >Assunto: Re: = [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free "Article =0A>Request" = list=0A> >=A0 =0A> >Hello,=0A> >=0A> >independently of how we feel about in= tellectual property issues, Brian's =0A> >message is a useful (and construc= tive) reminder that this system should =0A> >not be abused.=0A> >=0A> >Best= ,=0A> >=0A> >=A0=A0=A0 Bruno=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >On 06/08/2012 12:38 PM, Marce= lo Caetano wrote:=0A> >> Dear Brian and members of the list,=0A> >> I disag= ree with Brian's characterization of article requests as "rather=0A> >> exc= essive use of this list for obtaining articles". Personally, I have a=0A> >= > hunch that the frequent article requests might better reflect flaws in=0A= > >> the library system (amongs others) rather than plain laziness.=0A> >> = Unfortunately, I don't have data to confirm this impression (does=0A> >> an= yone?). However, we usually see immediate responses to article=0A> >> reque= sts made on the list, in opposition to the alternatives Brian=0A> >> points= out. Ultimately, I feel that this discussion is very in line=0A> >> with o= ngoing debates on issues about intellectual and property rights,=0A> >> and= I think we all could very much benefit from actively engaging in it.=0A> >= > Marcelo Caetano=0A> >>=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 *De:* Brian FG Katz <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx= IMSI.FR>=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 *Para:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0= *Enviadas:* Segunda-feira, 6 de Agosto de 2012 11:57=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 *Ass= unto:* [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free=0A> >>=A0 =A0= =A0 "Article Request" list=0A> >>=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 Dear list members,=0A> >= >=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 I would like to bring to people's attention the rather e= xcessive use=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 of this=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 list for obtaining a= rticles. While I understand that some articles=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 may be=0A> = >>=A0 =A0=A0 hard to find, being old, or in obscure journals, the constant = flow of=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 requests for articles that are clearly available, = albeit for a fee, is=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 something of an abuse of the list and= also the library system.=0A> >>=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 Student especially should= profit from the systems in place at their=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 respective inst= itutions, and if need be actually go to a library. Many=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 li= braries also offer article retrieval services, which should be =0A*fully*= =0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 exploited before make a global request to the open commun= ity.=0A> >>=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 Students are also encouraged to contact the au= thors directly to obtain=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 difficult articles, as a means of= expressing interest, and possibly=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 opening=0A> >>=A0 =A0= =A0 a dialog.=0A> >>=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 Only as a last resort should the list= be used as a resource for =0A"freely"=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 obtaining your bibl= iographic references.=0A> >>=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 Cordially,=0A> >>=0A> >>=A0 = =A0=A0 -Brian FG Katz=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 --=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 Brian FG Katz, P= h.D=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 Audio & Acoustique=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 LIMSI-CNRS=0A> >>= =A0 =A0=A0 BP 133=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 F91403 Orsay=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 France=0A>= >>=A0 =A0=A0 tel. (+33) 01 69 85 81 55=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 fax. (+33) 01.69.8= 5.80.88=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 e-mail Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx= i.fr>=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 <mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx= .fr>>=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 web_theme: http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/thmso= nesp/=0A> >>=A0 =A0=A0 web_group: http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/=0A> = >>=0A> >>=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=A0 =0A --1352305180-1776717680-1344265659=:46222 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he= ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;= font-size:12pt"><DIV>With regard to the very recent comments by Steve Beet = -</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>1) "Legitimate" fees to the journals? Fi= rst of all, the journals get all of their material at the expense of the ta= xpayers and/or the authors. Secondly, the fees demanded by journals for vie= wing and/or download of online papers - and for institutional print subscri= ptions, for that matter - have become so outrageous that an entire mov= ement for fee-free publication has taken hold (see recent news articles in = <EM>Science</EM> or in <EM>Nature</EM>). The publication houses -= or their clients such as IEEE, for example - are in no danger of goin= g bankrupt anytime soon.</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>2) "Days" is inde= ed far too long to wait for a relevant paper when a deadline is looming and= some significant point has to be supported. Not everyone has the lux= ury of time.</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>3) I note that Steve Beet has= an IEEE.org email address, which suggests a connection to that organi= zation, which has its own line of journals. - Lance Nizami PhD, Palo Alto, = California</DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, ti= mes, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helve= tica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma>=0A<HR SIZE= =3D1>=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Steve Beet &l= t;steve.beet@xxxxxxxx><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN= ></B> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent= :</SPAN></B> Mon, August 6, 2012 7:23:12 AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGH= T: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List"= as a free "Article Request" list<BR></FONT><BR>I don't think this needs to= be explicitly set down in the rules of the list. However, I do suspect tha= t this, and most similar lists, take it as read that members will use a lit= tle common sense in deciding when it is appropriate to make a request to th= e whole list. This applies to all postings, not just requests for reprints.= <BR><BR>I too would encourage people to ask for hard-to-find and seminal pa= pers in this way. In fact I would go further and encourage anyone who comes= across such papers to make them available to the whole list (copyright per= mitting) once they've been found.<BR><BR>However, recently (on this list) the reque= sts for papers HAVE been getting a little out of hand, and I've had the dis= tinct impression that some of the requests have been made out of simple laz= iness, and/or unwillingness to pay legitimate fees to the journals who rely= on such payments to keep their services going.<BR><BR>I don't think "days"= is too long to wait for a paper which probably took many months to be writ= ten and published in the first place!<BR><BR>Steve Beet<BR><BR><BR><BR>On M= on, 6 Aug 2012 05:49:11 -0700<BR>Marcelo Caetano <<A href=3D"mailto:gaio= louvo-auditory@xxxxxxxx" ymailto=3D"mailto:gaiolouvo-auditory@xxxxxxxx= .br">gaiolouvo-auditory@xxxxxxxx</A>> wrote:<BR><BR>> Dear Bruno = and list,<BR>> my point exactly. I don't agree that article requests on = the list can be characterized as abuse. I actually think that it's rather a= rbitrary to do so given that, currently, there are no guidelines on http://www.auditory.org/ (or anywhere else that I'm aware of). Conseq= uently, the way the members use the list currently dictates how the li= st is used. Maybe we should all discuss and agree on guidelines for all the= members to follow rather than give our personal opinions?<BR>> <B= R>> In time, writing the authors to request PDFs might work, but it can = take days. Sometimes the authors have academic webpages where you can find = (and download) a copy of their publications.<BR>> <BR>> Marcelo= <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> >________________________________<BR>> >= ; De: Bruno L. Giordano <<A href=3D"mailto:brungio@xxxxxxxx" ymailto=3D= "mailto:brungio@xxxxxxxx">brungio@xxxxxxxx</A>><BR>> >Para: <A h= ref=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" ymailto=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= GILL.CA">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</A> <BR>> >Enviadas: Segunda-feira,= 6 de Agosto de 2012 15:02<BR>> >Assunto: Re: [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free "Article Request" list<BR>> > <BR= >> >Hello,<BR>> ><BR>> >independently of how we feel abou= t intellectual property issues, Brian's <BR>> >message is a useful (a= nd constructive) reminder that this system should <BR>> >not be abuse= d.<BR>> ><BR>> >Best,<BR>> ><BR>> > &nbs= p; Bruno<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >On 06/08/2012 12:38 PM, Marc= elo Caetano wrote:<BR>> >> Dear Brian and members of the list,<BR>= > >> I disagree with Brian's characterization of article requests = as "rather<BR>> >> excessive use of this list for obtaining articl= es". Personally, I have a<BR>> >> hunch that the frequent article = requests might better reflect flaws in<BR>> >> the library system = (amongs others) rather than plain laziness.<BR>> >> Unfortunately,= I don't have data to confirm this impression (does<BR>> >> anyone?). However, we usually see immediate responses to article<BR>> &= gt;> requests made on the list, in opposition to the alternatives Brian<= BR>> >> points out. Ultimately, I feel that this discussion is ver= y in line<BR>> >> with ongoing debates on issues about intellectua= l and property rights,<BR>> >> and I think we all could very much = benefit from actively engaging in it.<BR>> >> Marcelo Caetano<BR>&= gt; >><BR>> >> *De:* Brian FG Katz <<A= href=3D"mailto:brian.katz@xxxxxxxx" ymailto=3D"mailto:brian.katz@xxxxxxxx"= >brian.katz@xxxxxxxx</A>><BR>> >> *Para:* <A= href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" ymailto=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= MCGILL.CA">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</A><BR>> >> = *Enviadas:* Segunda-feira, 6 de Agosto de 2012 11:57<BR>> >> = ; *Assunto:* [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free<BR>> >> "Article Request" list<BR>> &g= t;><BR>> >> Dear list members,<BR>> >&= gt;<BR>> >> I would like to bring to people's a= ttention the rather excessive use<BR>> >> of th= is<BR>> >> list for obtaining articles. While I= understand that some articles<BR>> >> may be<B= R>> >> hard to find, being old, or in obscure j= ournals, the constant flow of<BR>> >> requests = for articles that are clearly available, albeit for a fee, is<BR>> >&= gt; something of an abuse of the list and also the libra= ry system.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Student esp= ecially should profit from the systems in place at their<BR>> >>&n= bsp; respective institutions, and if need be actually go to a library. Many<BR>> >> libraries also o= ffer article retrieval services, which should be *fully*<BR>> >>&n= bsp; exploited before make a global request to the open commun= ity.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Students are also= encouraged to contact the authors directly to obtain<BR>> >> = ; difficult articles, as a means of expressing interest, and p= ossibly<BR>> >> opening<BR>> >> = a dialog.<BR>> >><BR>> >> = Only as a last resort should the list be used as a resource for "freely"<B= R>> >> obtaining your bibliographic references.= <BR>> >><BR>> >> Cordially,<BR>> &g= t;><BR>> >> -Brian FG Katz<BR>> >>&= nbsp; --<BR>> >> Brian FG Katz, Ph.D<BR>> >> Audio & Acoustique<BR>&= gt; >> LIMSI-CNRS<BR>> >> &nb= sp; BP 133<BR>> >> F91403 Orsay<BR>> >>= ; France<BR>> >> tel. (+33) = 01 69 85 81 55<BR>> >> fax. (+33) 01.69.85.80.8= 8<BR>> >> e-mail <A href=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx= imsi.fr" ymailto=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx">Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx</A> <= ;mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx" ymailto=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz= @xxxxxxxx">Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx</A>><BR>> >> = <mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx" ymailto=3D"mailto:Brian.K= atz@xxxxxxxx">Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx</A> <mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:Brian.Ka= tz@xxxxxxxx" ymailto=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx">Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx</A>= >><BR>> >> web_theme: <A href=3D"http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/thmsonesp/" target=3D_blank>ht= tp://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/thmsonesp/</A><BR>> >> &nb= sp; web_group: <A href=3D"http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/" targe= t=3D_blank>http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/</A><BR>> >><BR>>= ; >><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > <BR></DIV></DIV></d= iv></body></html> --1352305180-1776717680-1344265659=:46222--