Subject: Re: exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free "Article Request" list From: Iftikhar Nizami <nizamii2@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 07:04:02 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--1545434552-1158742080-1344261842=:70742 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear "List" -=0A=0AFrom a cybernetics point of view, this whole current con= versation is just an =0Aattempt by a system to self-regulate.=0A=0AAs a par= t of that system, let me invoke an old saying: If it ain't busted, don't = =0Afix it.=A0 The List is a shared resource consisting of whatever resource= s we =0Achoose to share.=A0=A0We all have our "rules"; I, for my part, will= not share =0Aresources with anyone who is too lazy to even supply their ow= n surname to a =0Arequest, which seems to happen often enough.=A0 (There ar= e surnames everywhere, =0Aeven within ethnic groups that don't routinely us= e surnames.)=0A=0AMy point: we do not need to start "making rules"=A0for th= e List.=A0 The List works, =0Aprecisely because the rules are minimal.=A0 A= s for the legalities, I seriously =0Adoubt that the List would be sued anyt= ime soon for fair sharing of academic =0Aresources among academics. Just a = hunch. - Lance Nizami PhD, Palo Alto, =0ACalifornia=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________= _______________________=0AFrom: Marcelo Caetano <gaiolouvo-auditory@xxxxxxxx= OM.BR>=0ATo: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx=0ASent: Mon, August 6, 2012 6:12:53 A= M=0ASubject: Re: [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free "Arti= cle =0ARequest" list=0A=0A=0ADear Bruno and list,=0Amy point exactly. I don= 't agree that article requests on the list can be =0Acharacterized as abuse= . I actually think that it's rather arbitrary to do so =0Agiven that, curre= ntly, there are no=A0guidelines on http://www.auditory.org/=A0(or =0Aanywhe= re else that I'm aware of). Consequently,=A0the way the members use the lis= t =0Acurrently dictates how the list is used. Maybe we should all discuss a= nd agree =0Aon guidelines for all the members to follow rather than give ou= r personal =0Aopinions?=0A=A0=0AIn time, writing the authors to request PDF= s might work, but it can take days. =0ASometimes the authors have academic = webpages where you can find (and download) a =0Acopy of their publications.= =0A=A0=0AMarcelo=0A=0A=0ADe: Bruno L. Giordano <brungio@xxxxxxxx>=0A>Para:= AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx =0A>Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 6 de Agosto de 2012 = 15:02=0A>Assunto: Re: [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free = "Article =0A>Request" list=0A>=0A>Hello,=0A>=0A>independently of how we fee= l about intellectual property issues, Brian's =0A>message is a useful (and = constructive) reminder that this system should =0A>not be abused.=0A>=0A>Be= st,=0A>=0A>=A0=A0=A0 Bruno=0A>=0A>=0A>On 06/08/2012 12:38 PM, Marcelo Caeta= no wrote:=0A>> Dear Brian and members of the list,=0A>> I disagree with Bri= an's characterization of article requests as "rather=0A>> excessive use of = this list for obtaining articles". Personally, I have a=0A>> hunch that the= frequent article requests might better reflect flaws in=0A>> the library s= ystem (amongs others) rather than plain laziness.=0A>> Unfortunately, I don= 't have data to confirm this impression (does=0A>> anyone?). However, we us= ually see immediate responses to article=0A>> requests made on the list, in= opposition to the alternatives Brian=0A>> points out. Ultimately, I feel t= hat this discussion is very in line=0A>> with ongoing debates on issues abo= ut intellectual and property rights,=0A>> and I think we all could very muc= h benefit from actively engaging in it.=0A>> Marcelo Caetano=0A>>=0A>>=A0 = =A0 *De:* Brian FG Katz <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx>=0A>>=A0 =A0 *Para:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LISTS.MCGILL.CA=0A>>=A0 =A0 *Enviadas:* Segunda-feira, 6 de Agosto de 2012 = 11:57=0A>>=A0 =A0 *Assunto:* [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" as = a free=0A>>=A0 =A0 "Article Request" list=0A>>=0A>>=A0 =A0 Dear list member= s,=0A>>=0A>>=A0 =A0 I would like to bring to people's attention the rather = excessive use=0A>>=A0 =A0 of this=0A>>=A0 =A0 list for obtaining articles. = While I understand that some articles=0A>>=A0 =A0 may be=0A>>=A0 =A0 hard t= o find, being old, or in obscure journals, the constant flow of=0A>>=A0 =A0= requests for articles that are clearly available, albeit for a fee, is=0A>= >=A0 =A0 something of an abuse of the list and also the library system.=0A>= >=0A>>=A0 =A0 Student especially should profit from the systems in place at= their=0A>>=A0 =A0 respective institutions, and if need be actually go to a= library. Many=0A>>=A0 =A0 libraries also offer article retrieval services,= which should be *fully*=0A>>=A0 =A0 exploited before make a global request= to the open community.=0A>>=0A>>=A0 =A0 Students are also encouraged to co= ntact the authors directly to obtain=0A>>=A0 =A0 difficult articles, as a m= eans of expressing interest, and possibly=0A>>=A0 =A0 opening=0A>>=A0 =A0 a= dialog.=0A>>=0A>>=A0 =A0 Only as a last resort should the list be used as = a resource for "freely"=0A>>=A0 =A0 obtaining your bibliographic references= .=0A>>=0A>>=A0 =A0 Cordially,=0A>>=0A>>=A0 =A0 -Brian FG Katz=0A>>=A0 =A0 -= -=0A>>=A0 =A0 Brian FG Katz, Ph.D=0A>>=A0 =A0 Audio & Acoustique=0A>>=A0 = =A0 LIMSI-CNRS=0A>>=A0 =A0 BP 133=0A>>=A0 =A0 F91403 Orsay=0A>>=A0 =A0 Fran= ce=0A>>=A0 =A0 tel. (+33) 01 69 85 81 55=0A>>=A0 =A0 fax. (+33) 01.69.85.80= .88=0A>>=A0 =A0 e-mail Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx>=0A>= >=A0 =A0 <mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx>>=0A>>=A0 = =A0 web_theme: http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/thmsonesp/=0A>>=A0 =A0 w= eb_group: http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A> --1545434552-1158742080-1344261842=:70742 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he= ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;= font-size:12pt"><DIV>Dear "List" -</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>From a = cybernetics point of view, this whole current conversation is just an attem= pt by a system to self-regulate.</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>As a part= of that system, let me invoke an old saying: If it ain't busted, don't fix= it. The List is a shared resource consisting of whatever resources w= e choose to share. We all have our "rules"; I, for my part, will= not share resources with anyone who is too lazy to even supply their own s= urname to a request, which seems to happen often enough. (There are s= urnames everywhere, even within ethnic groups that don't routinely use surn= ames.)</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>My point: we do not need to start "= making rules" for the List. The List <EM>works</EM>, precisely b= ecause the rules are minimal. As for the legalities, I seriously doub= t that the List would be sued anytime soon for fair sharing of academic res= ources among academics. Just a hunch. - Lance Nizami PhD, Palo Alto, Califo= rnia<BR></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, time= s, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new roma= n, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma>= =0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Ma= rcelo Caetano <gaiolouvo-auditory@xxxxxxxx><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"= FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<BR><B><SPAN styl= e=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Mon, August 6, 2012 6:12:53 AM<BR>= <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [AUDITORY] exp= loitation of "Auditory List" as a free "Article Request" list<BR></FONT><BR= >=0A<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new= york, times, serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=0A<DIV><SPAN>Dear Bruno= and list<VAR id=3Dyui-ie-cursor></VAR>,</SPAN></DIV>=0A<DIV><SPAN>my point= exactly. I don't agree that article requests on the list can be characteri= zed as abuse. I actually think that it's rather arbitrary to do so given th= at, currently, there are no guidelines on http://www.auditory.org/&nbs= p;(or anywhere else that I'm aware of). Consequently, the way the memb= ers use the list currently dictates how the list is used. </SPAN><SPAN>Mayb= e we should all discuss and agree on guidelines for all the members to foll= ow rather than give our personal opinions?</SPAN></DIV>=0A<DIV><SPAN></SPAN= > </DIV>=0A<DIV><SPAN>In time, writing the authors to request PDFs mig= ht work, but it can take days. Sometimes the authors have academic webpages= where you can find (and download) a copy of their publications.</SPAN></DI= V>=0A<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>=0A<DIV><SPAN>Marcelo</SPAN></DIV>=0A<DI= V><BR>=0A<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; MARGIN= -TOP: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMIL= Y: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=0A<DIV style= =3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">= =0A<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>=0A<DIV style=3D"BORDER-BOTTO= M: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PAD= DING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDI= NG-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: rgb(204,204,204) 1p= x solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class= =3Dhr></DIV><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">De:</SPAN></B> Bruno L. Gi= ordano <brungio@xxxxxxxx><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Pa= ra:</SPAN></B> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: = bold">Enviadas:</SPAN></B> Segunda-feira, 6 de Agosto de 2012 15:02<BR><B><= SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Assunto:</SPAN></B> Re: [AUDITORY] exploit= ation of "Auditory List" as a free "Article Request" list<BR></FONT></DIV><= BR>Hello,<BR><BR>independently of how we feel about intellectual property i= ssues, Brian's <BR>message is a useful (and constructive) reminder that thi= s system should <BR>not be abused.<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR> Bruno<BR><BR><BR>On 06/08/2= 012 12:38 PM, Marcelo Caetano wrote:<BR>> Dear Brian and members of the = list,<BR>> I disagree with Brian's characterization of article requests = as "rather<BR>> excessive use of this list for obtaining articles". Pers= onally, I have a<BR>> hunch that the frequent article requests might bet= ter reflect flaws in<BR>> the library system (amongs others) rather than= plain laziness.<BR>> Unfortunately, I don't have data to confirm this i= mpression (does<BR>> anyone?). However, we usually see immediate respons= es to article<BR>> requests made on the list, in opposition to the alter= natives Brian<BR>> points out. Ultimately, I feel that this discussion i= s very in line<BR>> with ongoing debates on issues about intellectual an= d property rights,<BR>> and I think we all could very much benefit from = actively engaging in it.<BR>> Marcelo Caetano<BR>><BR>> *De:* Brian FG Katz <<A href=3D"ma= ilto:brian.katz@xxxxxxxx" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:= brian.katz@xxxxxxxx">brian.katz@xxxxxxxx</A>><BR>> *Para= :* <A href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_bla= nk ymailto=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</A>= <BR>> *Enviadas:* Segunda-feira, 6 de Agosto de 2012 11:57<= BR>> *Assunto:* [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" = as a free<BR>> "Article Request" list<BR>><BR>> = Dear list members,<BR>><BR>> I would like to bri= ng to people's attention the rather excessive use<BR>> of t= his<BR>> list for obtaining articles. While I understand th= at some articles<BR>> may be<BR>> hard to f= ind, being old, or in obscure journals, the constant flow of<BR>> = requests for articles that are clearly available, albeit for a fee, is<BR>= > something of an abuse of the list and also the library sy= stem.<BR>><BR>> Student especially should profit from th= e systems in place at their<BR>> respective institutions, a= nd if need be actually go to a library. Many<BR>> libraries= also offer article retrieval services, which should be *fully*<BR>>&nbs= p; exploited before make a global request to the open community.<BR>= ><BR>> Students are also encouraged to contact the autho= rs directly to obtain<BR>> difficult articles, as a means o= f expressing interest, and possibly<BR>> opening<BR>>&nb= sp; a dialog.<BR>><BR>> Only as a last resort sho= uld the list be used as a resource for "freely"<BR>> obtain= ing your bibliographic references.<BR>><BR>> Cordially,<BR>><BR>> -Brian FG Katz<BR>>  = ; --<BR>> Brian FG Katz, Ph.D<BR>> Audio &a= mp; Acoustique<BR>> LIMSI-CNRS<BR>> BP 133<= BR>> F91403 Orsay<BR>> France<BR>> = tel. (+33) 01 69 85 81 55<BR>> fax. (+33) 01.69.85.= 80.88<BR>> e-mail <A href=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx" re= l=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx">Brian.K= atz@xxxxxxxx</A> <mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx" rel=3Dno= follow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx">Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx= msi.fr</A>><BR>> <mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz= @xxxxxxxx" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx= i.fr">Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx</A> <mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx= .fr" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx">Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx</A>>><BR>= > web_theme: http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/thmsonesp/= <BR>> web_group: http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/<BR>&g= t;<BR>><BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></di= v></body></html> --1545434552-1158742080-1344261842=:70742--