Subject: Re: FDL vs F0DL From: Roy Patterson <rdp1@xxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 16:35:15 +0000 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060009000006080409080402 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Jos=E9, I did a similar study with Bob Peters and Rob Milroy in 1983, but we=20 used a simple randon melody task to ensure that the listeners were using=20 pitch rather than a spectral position cue. You can do the task with 2-3=20 periods of a complex tone whereas it takes about 7 periods of the=20 fundamental on its own. In the paper, we interpret this as meaning that=20 the pitch is stronger for the complex tones. The reference is *Patterson, R.D., Peters, R.W.*and*Milroy, R.*(*1983*). "*Threshold=20 duration for melodic pitch,*"/In R. Klinke and R. Hartmann (Eds.),=20 Hearing - Physiological Bases and Psychophysics, Proceedings of the 6th=20 International Symposium on Hearing. Berlin: Springer-Verlag, 321-326. /A pdf of the paper is available at the bottom of my golden oldies web page *http://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/groups/cnbh/research/publications/conf_papers.php* It is also available at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37237083/CNBHpapers/PPMish1983.pdf Best regards, Roy On 28/02/2012 08:38, Jos=E9 Ignacio Alc=E1ntara wrote: > Dear List Members, > > According to Flanagan & Sadlow (1958), Pitch discrimination for=20 > synthetic vowels, J. Acoust. Soc. Am., 30: 435-442, F0DLs are slightly=20 > smaller than FDLs for a sinusoid with a frequency equal to that of the=20 > lowest frequency component of the complex tone. This implies that the=20 > (residue) pitch of the complex tone is stronger than that of the=20 > sinusoid, as long as there are resolvable low-frequency harmonics in=20 > the complex tone (e.g., harmonic numbers 3 to 5). I'm assuming that=20 > this is due to the integration of information from different=20 > resolvable harmonics to determine the residue pitch. > > My question is simply: does anyone know of any other more-recent=20 > studies that have replicated this finding? > > There's plenty in the literature on pitch perception of tones vs=20 > complex tones, which I know about; however, I cannot find any other=20 > studies that have explicitly compared sensitivity to pitch changes of=20 > pure tones vs complex tones, when the frequency of the sinusoid is=20 > equal to the F0 component of the complex tone? > > Best wishes, > Jos=E9 > > Dr Jos=E9 Ignacio Alc=E1ntara > > Department of Experimental Psychology > University of Cambridge > Downing Street > Cambridge, UK > CB2 3EB > Phone: 44 (0)1223 764412 > Fax: 44 (0)1223 333564 > > Fellow of Fitzwilliam College > Cambridge, UK > CB3 0DG > Phone: 44 (0)1223 332026 > > > > > > --=20 Roy Patterson Centre for the Neural Basis of Hearing Department of Physiology, Development and Neuroscience University of Cambridge, Downing Street, Cambridge, CB2 3EG phone +44 (1223) 333819 fax 333840 email: rdp1@xxxxxxxx http://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/groups/cnbh/ http://www.AcousticScale.org --------------060009000006080409080402 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline <html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Dear José,<br> <br> I did a similar study with Bob Peters and Rob Milroy in 1983, but we used a simple randon melody task to ensure that the listeners were using pitch rather than a spectral position cue. You can do the task with 2-3 periods of a complex tone whereas it takes about 7 periods of the fundamental on its own. In the paper, we interpret this as meaning that the pitch is stronger for the complex tones. The reference is <br> <br> <strong style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times, serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 225); font-size: medium; ">Patterson, R.D., Peters, R.W.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times, serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 225); font-size: medium; display: inline !important; float: none; ">and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><strong style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times, serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 225); font-size: medium; ">Milroy, R.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times, serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 225); font-size: medium; display: inline !important; float: none; ">(</span><strong style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times, serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 225); font-size: medium; ">1983</strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times, serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 225); font-size: medium; display: inline !important; float: none; ">). "</span><strong style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times, serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 225); font-size: medium; "><font color="#660066">Threshold duration for melodic pitch,</font></strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times, serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 225); font-size: medium; display: inline !important; float: none; ">"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><em style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times, serif; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 225); font-size: medium; ">In R. Klinke and R. Hartmann (Eds.), Hearing - Physiological Bases and Psychophysics, Proceedings of the 6th International Symposium on Hearing. Berlin: Springer-Verlag, 321-326.<span class="Apple-converted-space"><br> <br> </span></em>A pdf of the paper is available at the bottom of my golden oldies web page<br> <p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><a href="http://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/groups/cnbh/research/publications/conf_papers.php">http://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/groups/cnbh/research/publications/conf_papers.php</a><o:p></o:p></b></p> <meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14"> <meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 14"> <!-- <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CRoyP%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"> --> <!-- <link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CRoyP%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"> --> <!-- <link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CRoyP%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"> --> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-520092929 1073786111 9 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; mso-themecolor:hyperlink; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; mso-themecolor:followedhyperlink; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --> </style><br> It is also available at <br> <br> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37237083/CNBHpapers/PPMish1983.pdf">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37237083/CNBHpapers/PPMish1983.pdf</a><br> <br> Best regards,<br> <br> Roy<br> <br> On 28/02/2012 08:38, José Ignacio Alcántara wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:23893_1330418502_4F4C9346_23893_149_1_B4EB2B6B-1683-437D-8B02-802639A4E996@xxxxxxxx" type="cite">Dear List Members, <div><br> </div> <div>According to Flanagan & Sadlow (1958), Pitch discrimination for synthetic vowels, J. Acoust. Soc. Am., 30: 435-442, F0DLs are slightly smaller than FDLs for a sinusoid with a frequency equal to that of the lowest frequency component of the complex tone. This implies that the (residue) pitch of the complex tone is stronger than that of the sinusoid, as long as there are resolvable low-frequency harmonics in the complex tone (e.g., harmonic numbers 3 to 5). I'm assuming that this is due to the integration of information from different resolvable harmonics to determine the residue pitch.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>My question is simply: does anyone know of any other more-recent studies that have replicated this finding? </div> <div><br> </div> <div>There's plenty in the literature on pitch perception of tones vs complex tones, which I know about; however, I cannot find any other studies that have explicitly compared sensitivity to pitch changes of pure tones vs complex tones, when the frequency of the sinusoid is equal to the F0 component of the complex tone?</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Best wishes,</div> <div>José<br> <div> <div><br> </div> </div> <div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "> <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "> <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "> <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "> <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "> <div>Dr José Ignacio Alcántara<br> <br> Department of Experimental Psychology<br> University of Cambridge<br> Downing Street<br> Cambridge, UK<br> CB2 3EB<br> Phone: 44 (0)1223 764412<br> Fax: 44 (0)1223 333564<br> <br> Fellow of Fitzwilliam College<br> Cambridge, UK<br> CB3 0DG<br> Phone: 44 (0)1223 332026</div> </div> </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div> </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div> </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div> </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div> <br> </div> </blockquote> <br> <br> <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- Roy Patterson Centre for the Neural Basis of Hearing Department of Physiology, Development and Neuroscience University of Cambridge, Downing Street, Cambridge, CB2 3EG phone +44 (1223) 333819 fax 333840 email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rdp1@xxxxxxxx">rdp1@xxxxxxxx</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/groups/cnbh/">http://www.pdn.cam.ac.uk/groups/cnbh/</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.AcousticScale.org">http://www.AcousticScale.org</a> </pre> </body> </html> --------------060009000006080409080402--