Re: correction to post (Fred Herzfeld )


Subject: Re: correction to post
From:    Fred Herzfeld  <herzfeld@xxxxxxxx>
Date:    Tue, 2 Aug 2011 13:22:35 -0400
List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01CC5117.3E658500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy, ita, John, If any one is interested I think the paper John is referring to is: 0314 Pitch identification of simultaneous diotic and dichotic = two-tone complexes * J.G. Beerends; A.J.M. Houtsma JASA 1989 85(2) 813-819=20 published while he and Adrianus Houtsma were at the "Institute for = Perception Research" in Eindhoven.=20 A central processor model was mathematically described by Julius = Goldstein (while he too was at IPR) in: 0066 An Optimum processor theory for the central formation of the = pitch of complex tones * J.L. Goldstein JASA 1973 54(6) 1496-1516 Fred ------------------------------------------------------ Fred Herzfeld, MIT class of 1954 78 Glynn Marsh Drive # 59 Brunswick, Ga. 31525 USA tel: (912) 262-1276 Web: http://alum.mit.edu/www/herzfeld=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Beerends, J.G. (John)=20 To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 11:49 AM Subject: Re: correction to post Dear list, Periodicity plays a role in pitch perception but is not the whole = story.=20 In an experiment performed by Houtsma, many years ago, one sine goes = to one ear and another, harmonically related sine, to the other, there = is no mathematically periodicity at the fundamental, but melodies can be = played using this missing fundamental showing that a central processor = finds the missing fundamental. John Beerends TNO -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx On Behalf Of ita katz Sent: dinsdag 2 augustus 2011 16:56 To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: correction to post Dear list, Isn't the 'missing fundamental' phenomenon is easily explained by the = fact that the auditory system recognizes periodicity (it is known that = the auditory system preforms a time-domain analysis in addition to = freq-domain analysis), and the periodicity is 'mathematically' there = (i.e, no illusion whatsoever)? The periodicity is determined by the least-common-multiple of the = periodicities of the present harmonics, so if (for example) a sound is = composed of sines of frequencies 200Hz, 300Hz, and 400Hz, the periods = are 5msec, 3 1/3msec, and 2.5msec, so the least-common-multiple is = 10msec (2 periods of 5msec, 3 periods of 3.33msec, and 4 periods of = 2.5msec), which is of course the periodicity of the sum of the sines, or = in other words 100Hz. (actually it is the same as the = greatest-common-divisor of the frequencies). Itamar Katz On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Ranjit Randhawa <rsran@xxxxxxxx> = wrote: Dear Nedra, In my opinion the most enduring (over 200 years) of all auditory = "illusions" is what has been called the "missing fundamental". The fact = that this has not been satisfactorily resolved by the tortured use of = existing signal processing techniques leads some, including yours truly, = to believe that the auditory system has figured out a unique way to do = frequency analysis and to meet the dictum in biology that "form follows = function". Taking into account where we are and the discussions that = take place, e.g. this forum, it is interesting that there has been no = discussion as to why the cochlear has the shape it does. Therefore some = experimental phenomenon that we may call as an illusion, could have a = very natural consequence of how frequency analysis is done. One is lead = to believe that we are truly very far from understanding how the = auditory system works and therefore hearing aid designs are a bit of a = hoax foisted on the "proletariat". Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I = think it is time people recognized that the emperor has not clothes. Regards, Randy Randhawa On 7/30/2011 3:16 AM, Nedra Floyd-Pautler, LLC wrote: My apologies for an over-active spell checker that changed = "people" to "proletariat" in my recent posting. Below is the message I = intended to send:=20 I'm a science writer/audiologist researching an article on = auditory illusions. What value do they have "on the ground" for people = with hearing deficits? Do what they tells us about the brain and hearing = have application to hearing aid design?=20 Thank you, Nedra Floyd-Pautler www.thenedra.com This e-mail and its contents are subject to the DISCLAIMER at = http://www.tno.nl/emaildisclaimer=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com=20 Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3805 - Release Date: = 08/02/11 02:34:00 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01CC5117.3E658500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.19019"> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT = face=3DArial>Randy,=20 </FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D3 face=3DArial>ita,=20 John,</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>If any one is interested I think the paper John = is=20 referring to is:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ansi-language: = FI"=20 lang=3DFI><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial>0314<SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = </SPAN>Pitch=20 identification of simultaneous diotic and dichotic two-tone=20 complexes<?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ansi-language: = FI"=20 lang=3DFI><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial>*<SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-tab-count: = 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs= p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 </SPAN>J.G. Beerends; A.J.M. Houtsma<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ansi-language: = FI"=20 lang=3DFI><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-tab-count: = 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs= p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 </SPAN>JASA 1989 85(2) 813-819 </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ansi-language: = FI"=20 lang=3DFI><FONT size=3D3><FONT = face=3DArial></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ansi-language: = FI"=20 lang=3DFI><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial>published while he and = Adrianus Houtsma=20 were&nbsp;at the "Institute for Perception Research" in Eindhoven.=20 </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ansi-language: = FI"=20 lang=3DFI><FONT size=3D3 face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ansi-language: = FI"=20 lang=3DFI><FONT size=3D3 face=3DArial>A central processor model was = mathematically=20 described by Julius Goldstein (while he too was at IPR) = in:</FONT></SPAN></P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ansi-language: = FI"=20 lang=3DFI><FONT size=3D3 face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</P><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ansi-language: = FI"=20 lang=3DFI> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"><FONT = size=3D3><FONT=20 face=3DArial>0066<SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = </SPAN>An=20 Optimum processor theory for the central formation of the pitch of = complex=20 tones<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"><FONT = size=3D3><FONT=20 face=3DArial>*<SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-tab-count: = 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs= p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 </SPAN>J.L. Goldstein<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"><FONT = size=3D3><FONT=20 face=3DArial><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-tab-count: = 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs= p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 </SPAN>JASA 1973 54(6) 1496-1516</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"><FONT = size=3D3><FONT=20 face=3DArial></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"><FONT = size=3D3><FONT=20 face=3DArial>Fred</FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ansi-language: = FI"=20 lang=3DFI></SPAN>------------------------------------------------------</= P> <P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" = class=3DMsoNormal>Fred=20 Herzfeld, MIT class of 1954<BR>78 Glynn Marsh Drive # 59<BR>Brunswick, = Ga.=20 31525<BR>USA</P></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>tel: (912) 262-1276<BR>Web: <A=20 href=3D"http://alum.mit.edu/www/herzfeld">http://alum.mit.edu/www/herzfel= d</A>=20 </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; = PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Djohn.beerends@xxxxxxxx = href=3D"mailto:john.beerends@xxxxxxxx">Beerends,=20 J.G. (John)</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3DAUDITORY@xxxxxxxx=20 href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 02, 2011 = 11:49=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: correction to = post</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D430223615-02082011><FONT = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2 face=3DArial>Dear list,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D430223615-02082011><FONT = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><SPAN = class=3D430223615-02082011> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D430223615-02082011><FONT = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2 face=3DArial>Periodicity plays a role in pitch perception but = is not the=20 whole story.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 = face=3DArial>In an experiment=20 performed by Houtsma<SPAN class=3D430223615-02082011>,</SPAN> many = years=20 ago<SPAN class=3D430223615-02082011>,</SPAN> one sine goes to one ear = and=20 another, harmonically related sine, to the other, there is no = mathematically=20 periodicity at the fundamental, but melodies can be played&nbsp;using = this=20 missing fundamental showing that a central processor finds the missing = fundamental.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D430223615-02082011><FONT = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D430223615-02082011><FONT = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2 face=3DArial>John Beerends</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D430223615-02082011><FONT = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2 face=3DArial>TNO</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us class=3DOutlookMessageHeader align=3Dleft> <HR tabIndex=3D-1> <FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> AUDITORY - Research in = Auditory=20 Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <B>On Behalf Of </B>ita=20 katz<BR><B>Sent:</B> dinsdag 2 augustus 2011 16:56<BR><B>To:</B>=20 AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: correction to=20 post<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr>Dear list,<BR><BR>Isn't the 'missing fundamental' = phenomenon is=20 easily explained by the fact that the auditory system recognizes = periodicity=20 (it is known that the auditory system preforms a time-domain analysis = in=20 addition to freq-domain analysis), and the periodicity is = 'mathematically'=20 there (i.e, no illusion whatsoever)?<BR><BR>The periodicity is = determined by=20 the least-common-multiple of the periodicities of the present = harmonics, so if=20 (for example) a sound is composed of sines of frequencies 200Hz, = 300Hz, and=20 400Hz, the periods are 5msec, 3 1/3msec, and 2.5msec, so the=20 least-common-multiple is 10msec (2 periods of 5msec, 3 periods of = 3.33msec,=20 and 4 periods of 2.5msec), which is of course the periodicity of the = sum of=20 the sines, or in other words 100Hz. (actually it is the same as the=20 greatest-common-divisor of the frequencies).<BR><BR>Itamar = Katz<BR><BR> <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Ranjit = Randhawa <SPAN=20 dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A=20 href=3D"mailto:rsran@xxxxxxxx">rsran@xxxxxxxx</A>&gt;</SPAN> = wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; = PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"=20 class=3Dgmail_quote> <DIV bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">Dear Nedra,<BR>In my = opinion the most=20 enduring (over 200 years) of all auditory "illusions" is what has = been=20 called the "missing fundamental". The fact that this has not been=20 satisfactorily resolved by the tortured use of existing signal = processing=20 techniques leads some, including yours truly, to believe that the = auditory=20 system has figured out a unique way to do frequency analysis and to = meet the=20 dictum in biology that "form follows function". Taking into account = where we=20 are and the discussions that take place, e.g. this forum, it is = interesting=20 that there has been no discussion as to why the cochlear has the = shape it=20 does. Therefore some experimental phenomenon that we may call as an=20 illusion, could have a very natural consequence of how frequency = analysis is=20 done. One is lead to believe that we are truly very far from = understanding=20 how the auditory system works and therefore hearing aid designs are = a bit of=20 a hoax foisted on the "proletariat".&nbsp; Sorry if I sound a bit = harsh, but=20 I think it is time people recognized that the emperor has not=20 clothes.<BR>Regards,<BR>Randy Randhawa<BR><BR>On 7/30/2011 3:16 AM, = Nedra=20 Floyd-Pautler, LLC wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"> <DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: = 12pt"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: monospace; FONT-SIZE: medium">My apologies = for an=20 over-active spell checker that changed "people" to "proletariat" = in my=20 recent posting. Below is the message I intended to send:</SPAN>=20 <DIV><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: monospace; FONT-SIZE: = medium"><BR></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: monospace; FONT-SIZE: medium">I'm = a science=20 writer/audiologist researching an article on auditory illusions. = What=20 value do they have "on the ground" for people with hearing = deficits? Do=20 what they tells us about the brain and hearing have application to = hearing=20 aid design?&nbsp;<BR><BR>Thank you,<BR>Nedra = Floyd-Pautler<BR><SPAN=20 style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,0,139); TEXT-DECORATION: none"><A=20 style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,0,139); TEXT-DECORATION: none"=20 href=3D"http://www.thenedra.com"=20 = target=3D_blank>www.thenedra.com</A></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOT= E></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV><FONT=20 face=3Dmonospace>This e-mail and its contents are subject to the = DISCLAIMER at=20 http://www.tno.nl/emaildisclaimer</FONT>=20 <P> <HR> <P></P><BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG = -=20 www.avg.com <BR>Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3805 - = Release=20 Date: 08/02/11 02:34:00<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01CC5117.3E658500--


This message came from the mail archive
/var/www/postings/2011/
maintained by:
DAn Ellis <dpwe@ee.columbia.edu>
Electrical Engineering Dept., Columbia University