Subject: Re: SV: [AUDITORY] Rhythmic discrimination fovea? From: David Little <d-little@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 11:42:21 -0600 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--0015175cd5bae4ec11049867dc29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Eliot, if you haven't looked at it yet, this seems like it might be relevant: Karmarkar, U R, and D V Buonomano. 2007. Timing in the absence of clocks: encoding time in neural network states. *Neuron* 53, no. 3: 427-438. On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 4:07 AM, Leon van Noorden <leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx>wrote: > Dear Eliot, > > I don't know of direct measurements of the discrimination of such patterns. > One hypothesis that I can think of is that for such discriminations it is > necessary to count the beats. This would be easiest if the > duration of the temporal unit of which the pattern is constructed is in > between > 375 and 750 ms, with a shift to the latter for untrained people. > But perceiving directly the beat in such sequences could be difficult. > > Cf: > Van Noorden, L., & Moelants, D. (1999). Resonance in the Perception of > Musical Pulse. *Journal of New Music Research, 28*(1), 43--66. > For discrimination of tempo as such you should look at work of Michon. > > Kind regards, > > Leon van Noorden > www.ipem.ugent.be > www.unescog.org > > > > On 20 Dec 2010, at 18:31, Eliot Handelman wrote: > > On 20/12/2010 10:52 AM, Guy Madison wrote: > > Hi Eliot, > > > there are virtually countless variations of short rhythms like these. It's > not clear to me what scientific question you want to address with them, and > that determines to a large extent which references that may be relevant. > > > Sorry to be unclear, thanks for speedy reply. I am asking specifically > about the effect of tempo on rhythmic discrimination, > and the example I gave was only intended to illustrate. I selected it > because it is especially simple: > > 2 1 1 can be divided into two parts, a long, and two shorts which add up to > the long. Now vary the rhythm such that > the shorts are all the same size but don't quite add up to the long, eg 10 > 6 6. > > My question is: at what tempo will such variations tend to be perceived as > being just the same as 2 1 1? > > If, eg, the tempo is extremely slow (1= 1 day, or maybe 8 seconds). then I > guess we do not perceive any difference. > If the tempo is extremely fast, then some variations will certainly also be > indistinguishable from 2 1 1 (eg, 1000, 499, 499). > > To be clear: I'm asking about the effect of tempo/rate of discrimination. I > am guessing that there's some window > with optimal discrimination. > > The first of the references you gave below, for example, found tempo to be > a complex variable to control. The author > also seems to be working with rather complex rhythms of the sort that occur > in serial music and probably wanted to > know whether anyone can hear these. Sorry if I munged this, as I only > looked rather quickly. In contrast, I'm asking > about very simple rhythms and what happens to simple inequalities as the > tempo is varied from very slow to very fast. > > The research problem behind this has to do with representations of music at > various levels of rhythmic approximation, > in particular I am studying patterns of alternation that be induced over > rhythmic groups, given segmentation > criteria. In order to construct different quantal levels, I'm just using > clustering algorithms on IOIs to generate base > structures used for further analysis, but it occurred to me that there's > one area roughly between 80 & 800ms > where (I think) very fine discriminations can be made -- to which the > clustering algorithm should be sensitive. > > This is all part of my Jack & Jill automatic composition system: for more > information see my home page. > > best, > > -- eliot > > > > > > However, here are a few papers that should be relevant. Please mail me > directly if you can provide more detailed description of your goal, in which > case I might be able to give more specific tips. > > > Best, Guy > > > 1. Carson, B. (2007). Perceiving and distinguishing simple timespan ratios > without metric reinforcement. Journal of New Music Research, 36, 313-336. > > > -- David Little www.david-little.net "An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader." --Paul Graham --0015175cd5bae4ec11049867dc29 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eliot, if you haven't looked at it yet, this seems like it might be rel= evant:<div><p style=3D"margin-left:24pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Karmarkar, U R= , and D V Buonomano. 2007. Timing in the absence of clocks: encoding time i= n neural network states. <i>Neuron</i> 53, no. 3: 427-438.</p> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 4:07 AM, Leon van Noorde= n <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx">leonvanno= orden@xxxxxxxx</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st= yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Dear Eliot,</div><div><br></div><d= iv>I don't know of direct measurements of the discrimination of such pa= tterns.</div><div>One hypothesis that I can think of is that for such discr= iminations it is</div> <div>necessary to count the beats. This would be easiest if the</div><div>d= uration of the temporal unit of which the pattern is constructed is in betw= een</div><div>375 and 750 ms, with a shift to the latter for untrained peop= le.</div> <div>But perceiving directly the beat in such sequences could be difficult.= </div><div><br></div><div>Cf:</div><div>Van Noorden, L., & Moelants, D. (1999). Resonance in the Perception of Musical Pulse. <i= >Journal of New Music Research, 28</i>(1), 43--66.</div><div>For discrimination of tempo as such you should look at wo= rk of Michon.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div><br></div><f= ont color=3D"#888888"><div>Leon van Noorden</div><div><a href=3D"http://www= .ipem.ugent.be" target=3D"_blank">www.ipem.ugent.be</a></div> <div><a href=3D"http://www.unescog.org" target=3D"_blank">www.unescog.org</= a></div></font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div><br></= div> <br><div><div>On 20 Dec 2010, at 18:31, Eliot Handelman wrote:</div><br><bl= ockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 20/12/2010 10:52 AM, Guy Madison wrote:<br><= blockquote type=3D"cite">Hi Eliot,<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite= "> <br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">there are virtually countless va= riations of short rhythms like these. It's not clear to me what scienti= fic question you want to address with them, and that determines to a large = extent which references that may be relevant.<br> </blockquote><br>Sorry to be unclear, thanks for speedy reply. I am asking = specifically about the effect of tempo on rhythmic discrimination,<br>and t= he example I gave was only intended to illustrate. =A0I selected it because= it is especially simple:<br> <br>2 1 1 can be divided into two parts, a long, and two shorts which add u= p to the long. =A0Now vary the rhythm such that<br>the shorts are all the s= ame size but don't quite add up to the long, eg 10 6 6.<br><br>My quest= ion is: at what tempo will such variations tend to be perceived as being ju= st the same as 2 1 1?<br> <br>If, eg, the tempo is extremely slow (1=3D 1 day, or maybe 8 seconds). t= hen I guess we do not perceive any difference.<br>If the tempo is extremely= fast, then some variations will certainly also be indistinguishable from 2= 1 1 (eg, 1000, 499, 499).<br> <br>To be clear: I'm asking about the effect of tempo/rate of discrimin= ation. I am guessing that there's some window<br>with optimal discrimin= ation.<br><br>The first of the references you gave below, for example, foun= d tempo to be a complex variable to control. The author<br> also seems to be working with rather complex rhythms of the sort that occur= in serial music and probably wanted to<br>know whether anyone can hear the= se. Sorry if I munged this, as I only looked rather quickly. In contrast, I= 'm asking<br> about very simple rhythms and what happens to simple inequalities as the te= mpo is varied from very slow to very fast.<br><br>The research problem behi= nd this has to do with representations of music at various levels of rhythm= ic approximation,<br> in particular I am studying patterns of alternation that be induced over rh= ythmic groups, given segmentation<br>criteria. In order to construct differ= ent quantal levels, I'm just using clustering algorithms on IOIs to gen= erate base<br> structures used for further analysis, but it occurred to me that there'= s one area roughly between 80 & 800ms<br>where (I think) very fine disc= riminations can be made -- to which the clustering algorithm should be sens= itive.<br> <br>This is all part of my Jack & Jill automatic composition system: fo= r more information see my home page.<br><br>best,<br><br>-- eliot<br><br><b= r><br><br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">However, here are a few papers that= should be relevant. Please mail me directly if you can provide more detail= ed description of your goal, in which case I might be able to give more spe= cific tips.<br> </blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D= "cite">Best, Guy<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote= ><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>1. = <span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Carson, B. (2007). Perceiving = and distinguishing simple timespan ratios without metric reinforcement. Jou= rnal of New Music Research, 36, 313-336.<br> </blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></= div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>David Little<br><br><a href=3D"http://= www.david-little.net" target=3D"_blank">www.david-little.net</a><br><br>&qu= ot;An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."<br> <br>--Paul Graham<br> </div> --0015175cd5bae4ec11049867dc29--