Subject: Re: Rationale for Critical Bands From: James Johnston <James.Johnston@xxxxxxxx> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:49:59 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>It's interesting. If you look at articulation index bandwidth, and presume, as seems to be the case but which remains enlightened speculation at this time, that it's the spectral peaks that define speech articulation, then 50 and 80 dB INTENSITY for speech would seem to be unsurprising. Consonance of chords arises from the harmonic beating, and there would seem to be no reason for the beating to change with level, regardless of the width of a cochlear filter. This would seem to completely dismiss the relevance of cochlear filters totally, especially when accounting for things like co-articulation, etc, that do happen past the cochlea, that would capture beating even outside of an ERB to begin with. Through all of this, I am somewhat bothered by the fact we keep seeing "dB, dB, dB", when we should be discussion phons or sones, unless somebody has refuted Zwislocki and Greenwood! Is it the idea of the CNS proponent that "upward spread of masking" and the fact that excitation appears stronger at 2nd harmonic under high level conditions is due to the CNS??? While I've worked much more with phenomina than with the mechanisms themselves, the idea that response is faster at high frequencies and that masking is quite broader seems very consonant with wider ERB's/Barks, does a spectacular job of predicting the response of the codec listener, even with simplified stimuli, and introducing more mechanisms seems, frankly, to be asking for a visit from Ockham's Razor. __________________________ James D. Johnston (jj@xxxxxxxx) CHIEF SCIENTIST - DTS, Inc. 425-814-3200, ext. 134 - office 425-814-3204 - fax 206-321-7449- mobile 11410 NE 122nd Way, Suite 100 Kirkland, WA 98034 This electronic transmission (and/or the documents accompanying it) may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify DTS, Inc immediately by telephone (425-814-3200) and destroy the original message. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. -----Original Message----- From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Martin Braun Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:10 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Rationale for Critical Bands The best "experiments" for your answers are ordinary speech and music. 1) The quality of speech perception does not deteriorate when sound level increases from 50 to 80 dB. 2) The consonance vs. dissonance balance of a musical chord does not change when sound level increases from 50 to 80 dB. These observations tell us that spectral filtering, including band filtering, in the auditory system is as good as unchanged in this level range. We probably have lateral inhibition at all stages in the auditory pathway. This means that not only neural excitation is level dependent, but also lateral inhibition. Therefore it is no surprise that many experiments show level dependence in spectral filtering. Results vary with experimental design and say very little about real-life acoustical filtering such as in speech and music. The central nucleus of the inferior colliculus (ICC) has a unique role in lateral inhibition, because here it is anatomically predetermined by the laminar structure of the nucleus. The mechanism of this nucleus enables the level independence of spectral filtering that we experience in speech and music. The best descriptions of this mechanisms that I know of are in: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9237756 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10190753 Martin --------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Braun Neuroscience of Music S-671 95 Klässbol Sweden email: nombraun@xxxxxxxx web site: http://www.neuroscience-of-music.se/index.htm Notice: This message and any included attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please destroy the original message and any copies or printouts hereof.