Re: "gender" differences in perception of environmental sounds (Jose Ignacio Alcantara )

Subject: Re: "gender" differences in perception of environmental sounds From: Jose Ignacio Alcantara <jia10@xxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 22:12:41 +0100 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY> --Apple-Mail-3--356381705 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Has anyone else found a large part or the entirety of this interesting = discussion relegated to their spam folder, on the basis that it has the = word "sex" in the subject header? Or is my spam filter being over = zealous in its attempts to protect me from the unwanted attention of = companies offering me enhancement potential? Jose On 19 May 2010, at 14:46, David John SMith wrote: > I agree - interpretation is also a fleeting thing - the sounds in a = classroom resulting from an experiment involving 1"=20 > solid steel spheres bouncing on the concrete floor of the classroom = above, for example, could be interpreted as an=20 > expression of disdain for the english dept on the part of the physics = dept, or not. >=20 > Can anyone name a stable widespread culturally or sexually specific = sound event interpretation not having to do=20 > with gas escaping from bodily cavities? =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: valeriy shafiro <firosha@xxxxxxxx> > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 10:58 pm > Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] sex differences in perception of environmental = sounds >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Dear Milena,=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > You raise several important points. The cultural, environmental, and=20= >=20 > other factors you mention are certainly worth considering. However,=20= >=20 > depending on specific questions one is asking their influence may (or=20= >=20 > may not) be detected in an experiment. In this case, deciding how=20 >=20 > specifically these potentially important factors influence our=20 >=20 > everyday perception becomes more of a personal opinion. For example,=20= >=20 > if one is concerned with acoustic cues to the perception of breaking=20= >=20 > and bouncing events, to draw on a classic study, the results may not=20= >=20 > necessarily be influenced by the factors you mentioned (most societies=20= >=20 > have experience with breaking and bouncing). On the other hand, for a=20= >=20 > specific set of culturally specific sounds there could be marked=20 >=20 > differences, perhaps not entirely unlike some of the differences=20 >=20 > between any expert and novice listeners. The magnitude and nature of=20= >=20 > these effects still remains to be explored for the most part. While=20= >=20 > there are good reasons to believe that these cultural and societal=20 >=20 > factors may play a role, there is not much in the way of empirical=20 >=20 > evidence that I am aware of (except what Brian mentioned, and a couple=20= >=20 > of other studies, depending on how exactly you frame the question). I=20= >=20 > could not agree with you more that these factors should be=20 >=20 > investigated further and I think it is unfortunate that there is such=20= >=20 > a large gap between ecological acoustics and acoustic ecology, despite=20= >=20 > a seeming terminological similarity and often common goals of=20 >=20 > understanding sound perception in the real world. At the same time I=20= >=20 > believe that discussions like this, while getting further and further=20= >=20 > away from the original question asked by Joanna, do help to consider=20= >=20 > different takes on the same underlying questions.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Best,=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Valeriy=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > On 5/18/10, Milena Droumeva <mvdroume@xxxxxxxx> wrote:=20 >=20 > > Dear all,=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > rather than having some hard evidence to offer, I see this important=20= >=20 > > discussion as a way to keep the conversation going and wanted to = just=20 >=20 > > express an opinion on the definition of "environmental sounds" and = other=20 >=20 > > confounding factors about the perception of environmental sounds = that I=20 >=20 > > believe defy a bit direct comparisons of basic human differences = such as=20 >=20 > > sex, even age, etc.=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > My familiarity and work with environmental sounds comes from some = years of=20 >=20 > > work as a sound designer and auditory display designer where I've = taken=20 >=20 > > "environmental sounds" and used them as basis for designing = informational=20 >=20 > > displays, as well as continuous feedback. I also have a background = in=20 >=20 > > acoustic ecology of the R.M. Schafer kind (if any of you are = familiar)=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > I have to admit I am surprised to learn that in the psychology area = there is=20 >=20 > > an established definition of environmental sounds, given - and here = is my=20 >=20 > > "opinion" point - the highly culturally defined and specific nature = of=20 >=20 > > environmental sound perception. The example of baby crying is just = too easy=20 >=20 > > to pick on, but I will anyway - it could be argued that this is a = highly=20 >=20 > > particular sound, laden with cultural meaning and habituation. = Before it can=20 >=20 > > be reduced to sex differences, must we not recognize that not only = parents=20 >=20 > > vs. non-parents would naturally have an elevated sensitivity to it, = as it is=20 >=20 > > meaningful, but also women, even non-parents - get socialized in = almost=20 >=20 > > every culture - to think of themselves as potential mothers, and = thus might,=20 >=20 > > again, be more sensitive to a sound of baby crying. To me, this does = not=20 >=20 > > imply biology and primary psychology (that is, sex differences in=20 >=20 > > perception) - it implies cultural habituation.=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > This can be said for many, seemingly "innocent" and = everyday/familiar=20 >=20 > > environmental sounds - and I am curios, based on this discussion - = are any=20 >=20 > > of these other confounding factors (pesky cultural ones) being taken = into=20 >=20 > > account in any way in the psychoacoustic field?=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > Further - is any difference being made in the definition of = environmental=20 >=20 > > sounds between human, mechanical, electronic, electroacoustic and = digital=20 >=20 > > sound?=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > Thank you for entertaining my concerns - I just think this is a = really=20 >=20 > > important discussion to have here!=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > Milena=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Brian Gygi <bgygi@xxxxxxxx> = wrote:=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > David,=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > Although no formal body has ruled on the topic, in the past = several years=20 >=20 > > the term "environmental sounds" has acquired a relatively stable = definition=20 >=20 > > - namely familiar, naturally occurring sounds that refer to = physical=20 >=20 > > sources in the environment. There is of course some ambiguity = regarding=20 >=20 > > precisely what fits into this category, i.e., do musical instruments = count,=20 >=20 > > whose primary function is acoustic conveyance of aesthetic = attributes rather=20 >=20 > > than sound source specification? In any case,tThis is the = definition I and=20 >=20 > > others have taken in our work and what I assume Joanna meant. If = not I hope=20 >=20 > > she will let us know.=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > Brian Gygi, Ph.D.=20 >=20 > > > Speech and Hearing Research=20 >=20 > > > Veterans Affairs Northern California Health Care System=20 >=20 > > > 150 Muir Road=20 >=20 > > > Martinez, CA 94553=20 >=20 > > > (925) 372-2000 x5653=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > -----Original Message-----=20 >=20 > > > From: David Mountain [mailto:dcm@xxxxxxxx=20 >=20 > > > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 08:06 PM=20 >=20 > > > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > Subject: Re: sex differences in perception of environmental sounds=20= >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > I think that before we can address this question, we need to = define what=20 >=20 > > we mean by "environmental sounds."=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:47 AM, valeriy shafiro = <firosha@xxxxxxxx>=20 >=20 > > wrote:=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > >=20 >=20 > > > > Dear Joanna,=20 >=20 > > > >=20 >=20 > > > > As far as I know across the studies of environmental sound = perception=20 >=20 > > > > in the last 20-30 years none was designed specifically to = examine=20 >=20 > > > > male/female differences. Results from studies that looked at=20 >=20 > > > > identification of large collections of different types of=20 >=20 > > > > environmental sounds also did not find any differences, although = in a=20 >=20 > > > > recent study on environmental sound identification within = contextually=20 >=20 > > > > congruent and incongruent auditory scenes, Brian Gygi and I, saw = an=20 >=20 > > > > overall identification difference between males and females, but = it=20 >=20 > > > > was small (3-4 points) and non significant. It is conceivable = that=20 >=20 > > > > given a large variety of familiar environmental sounds tested in = these=20 >=20 > > > > studies, whatever differences there may be between males and = females=20 >=20 > > > > are obscured, and that for a set of specific sounds there are = may be=20 >=20 > > > > sex differeces in behavioral of physiologic measures (e.g. baby=20= >=20 > > > > crying). While not specifically targeting environmental sounds, = John=20 >=20 > > > > Neuhoff did find some interesting sex differences in the = perception of=20 >=20 > > > > looming motion, which might relevant to your question.=20 >=20 > > > >=20 >=20 > > > > Best regards,=20 >=20 > > > >=20 >=20 > > > > Valeriy=20 >=20 > > > >=20 >=20 > > > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 7:40 AM, Joanna Kantor-Martynuska=20 >=20 > > > > <joanna.kantor@xxxxxxxx> wrote:=20 >=20 > > > > > Dear Auditory List,=20 >=20 > > > > >=20 >=20 > > > > > I would very much appreciate your suggestions about the = literature=20 >=20 > > regarding=20 >=20 > > > > > sex differences in perception of environmental sounds. I = intrested=20 >=20 > > in=20 >=20 > > > > > physiological indices of auditory predispositions for = perception of=20 >=20 > > > > > different sounds we encounter in our natural environment.=20 >=20 > > > > >=20 >=20 > > > > > Looking forward to any interesting suggestions or links.=20 >=20 > > > > >=20 >=20 > > > > > Best,=20 >=20 > > > > > Joanna Kantor=20 >=20 > > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > --=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > David C. Mountain, Ph.D.=20 >=20 > > > Professor of Biomedical Engineering=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > Boston University=20 >=20 > > > 44 Cummington St.=20 >=20 > > > Boston, MA 02215=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > > Email: dcm@xxxxxxxx=20 >=20 > > > Website:=20 >=20 > > http://www.bu.edu/hrc/research/laboratories/auditory-biophysics/=20 >=20 > > > Phone: (617) 353-4343=20 >=20 > > > FAX: (617) 353-6766=20 >=20 > > > Office: ERB 413=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > > >=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Dr Jos=E9 Ignacio Alc=E1ntara Department of Experimental Psychology University of Cambridge Downing Street Cambridge, UK CB2 3EB Phone: 44 (0)1223 764412 Fax: 44 (0)1223 333564 Fellow of Fitzwilliam College Cambridge, UK CB3 0DG Phone: 44 (0)1223 472126 --Apple-Mail-3--356381705 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 <html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Has = anyone else found a large part or the entirety of this interesting = discussion relegated to their spam folder, on the basis that it has the = word "sex" in the subject header?  Or is my spam filter being over = zealous in its attempts to protect me from the unwanted attention of = companies offering me enhancement = potential?<div> </div><div>Jose <div> </div><div> <div><div>On= 19 May 2010, at 14:46, David John SMith wrote:</div> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div> I agree - interpretation is also a fleeting thing -  the = sounds in a classroom resulting from an experiment involving 1" solid steel spheres bouncing on the concrete floor of the classroom = above, for example, could be interpreted as an expression of disdain for the english dept on the part of the physics = dept, or not. Can anyone name a stable widespread culturally or sexually specific = sound event interpretation not having to do with gas escaping from bodily cavities?  </div> <div> </div> -----Original Message----- From: valeriy shafiro <<a = href=3D"mailto:firosha@xxxxxxxx">firosha@xxxxxxxx</a>> To: <a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] sex differences in perception of environmental = sounds <div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_0_f5742939-66f8-499c-9607-a16b9e9f9508" = style=3D"margin: 0px; font-family: Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif; = font-size: 12px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, = 255);"> <pre style=3D"font-size: 9pt;"><tt>Dear Milena, You raise several important points. The cultural, environmental, and = other factors you mention are certainly worth considering. However, = depending on specific questions one is asking their influence may (or = may not) be detected in an experiment. In this case, deciding how specifically these potentially important factors influence our everyday perception becomes more of a personal opinion. For example, = if one is concerned with acoustic cues to the perception of breaking = and bouncing events, to draw on a classic study, the results may not = necessarily be influenced by the factors you mentioned (most societies = have experience with breaking and bouncing). On the other hand, for a = specific set of culturally specific sounds there could be marked differences, perhaps not entirely unlike some of the differences between any expert and novice listeners. The magnitude and nature of = these effects still remains to be explored for the most part. While = there are good reasons to believe that these cultural and societal factors may play a role, there is not much in the way of empirical evidence that I am aware of (except what Brian mentioned, and a couple = of other studies, depending on how exactly you frame the question). I = could not agree with you more that these factors should be investigated further and I think it is unfortunate that there is such = a large gap between ecological acoustics and acoustic ecology, despite = a seeming terminological similarity and often common goals of understanding sound perception in the real world. At the same time I = believe that discussions like this, while getting further and further = away from the original question asked by Joanna, do help to consider = different takes on the same underlying questions. Best, Valeriy On 5/18/10, Milena Droumeva <<a>mvdroume@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote: > Dear all, > > rather than having some hard evidence to offer, I see this = important > discussion as a way to keep the conversation going and wanted to = just > express an opinion on the definition of "environmental sounds" and = other > confounding factors about the perception of environmental sounds = that I > believe defy a bit direct comparisons of basic human differences = such as > sex, even age, etc. > > My familiarity and work with environmental sounds comes from some = years of > work as a sound designer and auditory display designer where I've = taken > "environmental sounds" and used them as basis for designing = informational > displays, as well as continuous feedback. I also have a background = in > acoustic ecology of the R.M. Schafer kind (if any of you are = familiar) > > I have to admit I am surprised to learn that in the psychology area = there is > an established definition of environmental sounds, given - and here = is my > "opinion" point - the highly culturally defined and specific nature = of > environmental sound perception. The example of baby crying is just = too easy > to pick on, but I will anyway - it could be argued that this is a = highly > particular sound, laden with cultural meaning and habituation. = Before it can > be reduced to sex differences, must we not recognize that not only = parents > vs. non-parents would naturally have an elevated sensitivity to it, = as it is > meaningful, but also women, even non-parents - get socialized in = almost > every culture - to think of themselves as potential mothers, and = thus might, > again, be more sensitive to a sound of baby crying. To me, this = does not > imply biology and primary psychology (that is, sex differences in = > perception) - it implies cultural habituation. > > This can be said for many, seemingly "innocent" and = everyday/familiar > environmental sounds - and I am curios, based on this discussion - = are any > of these other confounding factors (pesky cultural ones) being = taken into > account in any way in the psychoacoustic field? > > Further - is any difference being made in the definition of = environmental > sounds between human, mechanical, electronic, electroacoustic and = digital > sound? > > Thank you for entertaining my concerns - I just think this is a = really > important discussion to have here! > > Milena > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Brian Gygi = <<a>bgygi@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote: > > > > > > > > David, > > > > > > Although no formal body has ruled on the topic, in the past = several years > the term "environmental sounds" has acquired a relatively stable = definition > - namely familiar, naturally occurring sounds that refer to = physical > sources in the environment. There is of course some ambiguity = regarding > precisely what fits into this category, i.e., do musical = instruments count, > whose primary function is acoustic conveyance of aesthetic = attributes rather > than sound source specification? In any case,tThis is the = definition I and > others have taken in our work and what I assume Joanna meant. If = not I hope > she will let us know. > > > > > > > > Brian Gygi, Ph.D. > > Speech and Hearing Research > > Veterans Affairs Northern California Health Care System > > 150 Muir Road > > Martinez, CA 94553 > > (925) 372-2000 x5653 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David Mountain [<a>mailto:dcm@xxxxxxxx</a>] > > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 08:06 PM > > To: <a>AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: sex differences in perception of environmental = sounds > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that before we can address this question, we need to = define what > we mean by "environmental sounds." > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:47 AM, valeriy shafiro = <<a>firosha@xxxxxxxx</a>> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Joanna, > > > > > > As far as I know across the studies of environmental = sound perception > > > in the last 20-30 years none was designed specifically to = examine > > > male/female differences. Results from studies that = looked at > > > identification of large collections of different types of = > > > environmental sounds also did not find any differences, = although in a > > > recent study on environmental sound identification within = contextually > > > congruent and incongruent auditory scenes, Brian Gygi and = I, saw an > > > overall identification difference between males and = females, but it > > > was small (3-4 points) and non significant. It is = conceivable that > > > given a large variety of familiar environmental sounds = tested in these > > > studies, whatever differences there may be between males = and females > > > are obscured, and that for a set of specific sounds there = are may be > > > sex differeces in behavioral of physiologic measures = (e.g. baby > > > crying). While not specifically targeting environmental = sounds, John > > > Neuhoff did find some interesting sex differences in the = perception of > > > looming motion, which might relevant to your question. = > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Valeriy > > > > > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 7:40 AM, Joanna Kantor-Martynuska = > > > <<a>joanna.kantor@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote: > > > > Dear Auditory List, > > > > > > > > I would very much appreciate your suggestions about = the literature > regarding > > > > sex differences in perception of environmental = sounds. I intrested > in > > > > physiological indices of auditory predispositions = for perception of > > > > different sounds we encounter in our natural = environment. > > > > > > > > Looking forward to any interesting suggestions or = links. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Joanna Kantor > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > David C. Mountain, Ph.D. > > Professor of Biomedical Engineering > > > > Boston University > > 44 Cummington St. > > Boston, MA 02215 > > > > Email: <a>dcm@xxxxxxxx</a> > > Website: > = <a>http://www.bu.edu/hrc/research/laboratories/auditory-biophysics/</a> = > > Phone: (617) 353-4343 > > FAX: (617) 353-6766 > > Office: ERB 413 > > > > > > </tt></pre> </div> </blockquote></div> <div> <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: = auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; = orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; = orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space; "><div>Dr Jos=E9 Ignacio Alc=E1ntara Department = of Experimental Psychology University of Cambridge Downing = Street Cambridge, UK CB2 3EB Phone: 44 (0)1223 764412 Fax: = 44 (0)1223 333564 Fellow of Fitzwilliam College Cambridge, = UK CB3 0DG Phone: 44 (0)1223 = 472126 </div><div> </div></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-3--356381705--

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