Subject: Re: pulse / beat / meter etc From: Leon van Noorden <leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:57:47 +0100 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>Dear Bruno, I do not understand the use of the term streaming here. For me it is the integration of successive tones in a coherent melodic line. Here you and Kevin are talking about hearing a complex tone as a single complex entity or a bunch of harmonics with octave relations. What do you mean by streaming here? is it the integration of the complex in a single percept or the singling out of the separate harmonics. I am not happy with neither of these meanings. Best, Leon On 09 Dec 2009, at 16:23, Bruno Repp wrote: > Dear Kevin: > > Let me assure you that you CAN stream the multiple octaves in a > Shepard tone; in fact, this is what most musicians do. They are > "analytic listeners", unlike myself for example, who just hears > (mainly) a single pitch. However, even if you stream the octaves, > you should hear any particular stream as continuously descending as > long as you hang on to it. If you switch attention to another stream > because you want to focus on a particular octave, then of course the > descent will be interrupted and reset. The point of Madison's > illusion seems to be that listeners hang on to a chosen beat level > for a long time, even when the beat becomes unreasonably slow (or > fast). However, it is unclear how obligatory this tendency is, and > how aware participants are of the continuous change in beat rate. > The willingness to switch from one beat level to another could > probably be manipulated through instructions. > > Best, > Bruno > > > Kevin Austin wrote: >> Hmm .. I do not consider this to be an illusion. In my first theory >> class I will have six students in front of the class 'beating time' >> to a (simple) Sousa march. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvWLMkxSwIo&feature=related >> The demonstration is that the division of time (also called >> rhythm) is multi-dimensional. Underlying patterns / structures are >> (in western music) found from the levels of pulse, beat-subdivision >> (grouped pulses), beat (grouped beat-subdivisions), meter >> (patterned beats), phrase sub-division (collections of metric >> units), phrase (multiples of phrase sub-divisions), phrase groups ... >> In western music, around these frameworks, there are rhythmic >> elements (melody, accompaniment, figurations etc). >> >> Continuous acceleration / deceleration can be found in the Carter >> String Quartet No 2 (1959), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC6qTmsAnQI&feature=related >> and in other pieces after that date. The idea of pulse >> acceleration is also explored in Kontakte by Stockhausen. >> >> Drummers (and organists) are well-acquainted with this multi- >> dimemsional aspect of the articulation(s) of time (rhythm) as they >> will often have to provide two or more levels of the metric >> structure. Conductors train to be able to move their arms at >> different tempi (up to about 3:4), and also to count different >> numbers of beats with each arm (3 beats in the left hand and 4 >> beats with the right). >> >> Regarding the Risset, and shepard tones, I do not hear continuous >> descent as I tend not to integrate the tone but stream the multiple >> octaves, something I am told I cannot do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUNjbNK5Giw&feature=related >> >> For the beat and other 'illusions' : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6JSTkwXg90&feature=related >> This site is based upon the belief that an external reality exists. >> IMV. >> >> >> Kevin >> >> >> >> >> >>> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 20:17:38 +0100 >>> From: Leon van Noorden <leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx> >>> Subject: auditory illusion >>> >>> Dear list, >>> >>> For those who are looking for a compelling auditory illusion I can >>> recommend the article by Guy Madison on seemingly perpetually >>> slowing down or speeding up rhythmic patterns. >>> >>> The freely accessible paper is located at: http://dx.plos.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0008151 >>> >>> Leon van Noorden >>> > > > -- > Bruno H. Repp > Haskins Laboratories 300 George Street > New Haven, CT 06511-6624 > Tel. (203) 865-6163, ext. 236 > Fax (203) 865-8963 > http://www.haskins.yale.edu/staff/repp.html