Re: Perception as memory (Andrew McGuiness )

Subject: Re: Perception as memory From: Andrew McGuiness <andymcguiness@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:25:48 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY> --0-180865187-1251138348=:47911 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Kevin, you might find Mark DeBellis interesting=A0on nonconceptual and conc= eptual hearing in music:=20 =A0 DeBellis, M. (1995). Music and conceptualization, Cambridge University Pres= s. =A0 As you say, untrained listeners can hear the difference between a P4 and P5= when played side by side - so they can perceive the difference. Being able= to name it reliably is a natter of conceptualisation. But if they couldn't= perceive the intervals as what they are reliably, they would not be able t= o recognize a melody using those (and other) intervals. =A0 Christopher Peacocke explains the difference clearly in his chapter on 'obs= ervational concepts':=A0 Peacocke, C. (1983). Sense and content, Oxford University Press. =A0 regards =A0 Andy McGuiness http://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/experience/amcguiness.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date:=A0 =A0 Sun, 23 Aug 2009 11:29:49 -0400 From:=A0 =A0 Kevin Austin <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx> Subject: Perception as memory ... >From my reading, I am now far into semantics with this. In my view,=A0=20 greatly simplified, perception is memory, but I'm a slow learner in=A0=20 this matter too. In the training and development of [sonic] ear-training skills, my=A0=20 experience is that perception is memory (neither term here am I=A0=20 defining ... sorry). If 'perception' can be developed, I feel that=A0=20 this development is a matter of memory development, and the associated=A0= =20 aspects of memory that relate to categorization. If the listener has=A0=20 only one 'word' (category) for noise, then I have found that the=A0=20 individual may note "different" noises, but not have a way of=A0=20 categorizing them. Their category 'grid' is too large to respond with=A0=20 identification. For example, say, in musical ear-training, a student regularly=A0=20 confuses the perfect fourth and the perfect fifth. When played one=A0=20 after another, they note that they are different, but cannot=A0=20 'remember' which is which. For just over a year I have been working at the millisecond and almost=A0= =20 the sample level in editing sounds. Now some 20,000 or more edits=A0=20 later at the sample / ms level, I speak of my hearing being "faster";=A0=20 I require much less time to pick up repetition (even non-patterned=A0=20 repetition), and patterns, than I did before my many hundreds of hours=A0= =20 of (self-imposed) micro-editing training. Has my 'perception' improved; is my perceptual 'grid' much finer, and=A0=20 with more experience, does my memory now have a greater number of=A0=20 categories -- greater precision, accessed much faster. The model I=A0=20 currently use is that it is "all memory". If the stimulus does not tap=A0= =20 into memory, it is 'invisible'. One way I demonstrate this with groups is to play a 10 note chord (*)=A0=20 on a piano, which is heard as an integrated whole by most of those who=A0= =20 hear it. I play the third note from bottom note (a D in this case),=A0=20 and ask if it was in the chord. Most people can't tell -- they can't=A0=20 remember (or perhaps cannot 'perceive' -- segregate it from the=A0=20 complex). I repeat the D a few times, and play the chord again. Some people may=A0=20 report hearing it. Most don't. The next step is to the play the D very loud (ff), and one second=A0=20 later, play the rest of the chord very quietly (pp), for 2 seconds. I=A0=20 lift my hands from the other notes of the chord, and the D continues=A0=20 to sound. This I repeat a few times. Most report being able to 'hold=A0=20 onto' the D through the sounding chord. Following this, the time between the D and the chord shortens, and the=A0= =20 "rest of the chord" is played louder and louder. The D is slowly being=A0= =20 placed into the integrated mass of the chord -- the listeners'=A0=20 memories (for the D and its segregation from the chord) is being=A0=20 improved. After about 2 minutes, I return to playing the 10 note chord, and ask=A0=20 if they are able to hear (segregate) the D from the integrated=A0=20 structure. Many (many) more report being able to do so. Has the(ir) perception improved? Will they be able to do this with=A0=20 other sounds? My interpretation of my experience here is that they have learned a=A0=20 technique for the refinement of their memory, but in the colloquial, I=A0= =20 refer to an improvement in their perceptual ability. Best Kevin (*) The chord is, ascending:=A0 G=A0 Bb=A0 D=A0 F#=A0 A=A0 C=A0 E=A0 G#=A0 = B=A0 C# , the=A0=20 first 10 notes of the row of the Alban Berg Violin Concerto. > Date:=A0 =A0 Sat, 22 Aug 2009 11:33:12 +0200 > From:=A0 =A0 Christian Kaernbach <auditorylist@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: Infrapitch > > Dear List, > > ... In my view, it has more the characteristics of memory than of=A0=20 > pitch perception. > > ... The introspective sensation when doing so is definitively that=A0=20 > of "remembering", not of "perception". > > ... It is true that periodicities around 2 Hz (0.5 s) evoke a=A0=20 > "perception" that is different from that of non-repeating noise. I=A0=20 > believe that it is memory that helps to detect some statistical=A0=20 > fluctuations in that noise that otherwise would pass unnoticed. In=A0=20 > other words, memory is altering perception. > ------------------------------ End of AUDITORY Digest - 22 Aug 2009 to 23 Aug 2009 (#2009-193) *************************************************************** _____________________________________________________________________= _____________ Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local. Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au= --0-180865187-1251138348=:47911 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline <table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"= top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Kevin, you might find Mark DeBellis inte= resting on nonconceptual and conceptual hearing in music: </DIV> <?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D "urn:s= chemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p></DIV> DeBellis, M. (1= 995). Music and conceptualization, Cambridge University Press.<o:p><= /o:p></DIV> <o:p> </o:p></DIV> <DIV> <DIV>As you say, untrained listeners can hear the difference between a P4 a= nd P5 when played side by side - so they can perceive the difference. Being= able to name it reliably is a natter of conceptualisation. But if they cou= ldn't perceive the intervals as what they are reliably, they would= not be able to recognize a melody using those (and other) intervals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Christopher Peacocke explains the difference clearly in his chapter on= 'observational concepts':<o:p> </o:p></DIV></DIV> Peacocke, C. (1= 983). Sense and content, Oxford University Press.<o:p></o:p><= /DIV> <o:p> </o:p></DIV> <o:p>regards</o:p></DIV> <o:p></o:p> </DIV> <o:p>Andy McGuiness</o:p></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(= 16,16,255) 2px solid"> <DIV class=3DplainMail><A href=3D"http://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/experience/amc= guiness.htm">http://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/experience/amcguiness.htm</A> --= -------------------------------------------------------------------- <BR= >Date:    Sun, 23 Aug 2009 11:29:49 -0400 From:    K= evin Austin <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx> Subject: Perception as m= emory ... From my reading, I am now far into semantics with this. In= my view,  greatly simplified, perception is memory, but I'm a slo= w learner in  this matter too. In the training and developm= ent of [sonic] ear-training skills, my  experience is that percept= ion is memory (neither term here am I  defining ... sorry). If 'pe= rception' can be developed, I feel that  this development is a mat= ter of memory development, and the associated  aspects of memory that relate to= categorization. If the listener has  only one 'word' (category) f= or noise, then I have found that the  individual may note "differe= nt" noises, but not have a way of  categorizing them. Their catego= ry 'grid' is too large to respond with  identification. For= example, say, in musical ear-training, a student regularly  confu= ses the perfect fourth and the perfect fifth. When played one  aft= er another, they note that they are different, but cannot  'rememb= er' which is which. For just over a year I have been working at the = millisecond and almost  the sample level in editing sounds. Now so= me 20,000 or more edits  later at the sample / ms level, I speak o= f my hearing being "faster";  I require much less time to pick up = repetition (even non-patterned  repetition), and patterns, than I did before my many hundreds of hours  of (self-imposed) mi= cro-editing training. Has my 'perception' improved; is my perceptual= 'grid' much finer, and  with more experience, does my memory now = have a greater number of  categories -- greater precision, accesse= d much faster. The model I  currently use is that it is "all memor= y". If the stimulus does not tap  into memory, it is 'invisible'.<= BR> One way I demonstrate this with groups is to play a 10 note chord (*= )  on a piano, which is heard as an integrated whole by most of th= ose who  hear it. I play the third note from bottom note (a D in t= his case),  and ask if it was in the chord. Most people can't tell= -- they can't  remember (or perhaps cannot 'perceive' -- segregat= e it from the  complex). I repeat the D a few times, and pl= ay the chord again. Some people may  report hearing it. Most don't. The next step is to the play the D very loud (ff), and = one second  later, play the rest of the chord very quietly (pp), f= or 2 seconds. I  lift my hands from the other notes of the chord, = and the D continues  to sound. This I repeat a few times. Most rep= ort being able to 'hold  onto' the D through the sounding chord.<B= R> Following this, the time between the D and the chord shortens, and th= e  "rest of the chord" is played louder and louder. The D is slowl= y being  placed into the integrated mass of the chord -- the liste= ners'  memories (for the D and its segregation from the chord) is = being  improved. After about 2 minutes, I return to playing= the 10 note chord, and ask  if they are able to hear (segregate) = the D from the integrated  structure. Many (many) more report bein= g able to do so. Has the(ir) perception improved? Will they be able to do this with  other sounds? My interpretation of my= experience here is that they have learned a  technique for the re= finement of their memory, but in the colloquial, I  refer to an im= provement in their perceptual ability. Best Kevin = (*) The chord is, ascending:  G  Bb  D  F#  A&= nbsp; C  E  G#  B  C# , the  first 10 notes of= the row of the Alban Berg Violin Concerto. > Date: =   Sat, 22 Aug 2009 11:33:12 +0200 > From:    Christia= n Kaernbach <auditorylist@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: Infrap= itch > > Dear List, > > ... In my view, it has more= the characteristics of memory than of  > pitch perception. = > > ... The introspective sensation when doing so is definitively that  &= gt; of "remembering", not of "perception". > > ... It is true t= hat periodicities around 2 Hz (0.5 s) evoke a  > "perception" t= hat is different from that of non-repeating noise. I  > believe= that it is memory that helps to detect some statistical  > flu= ctuations in that noise that otherwise would pass unnoticed. In  &= gt; other words, memory is altering perception. > ------------= ------------------ End of AUDITORY Digest - 22 Aug 2009 to 23 Aug 20= 09 (#2009-193) *********************************************************= ****** </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table> <hr size=3D1> Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local. <a href= =3D" http://au.rd.yahoo.com/search/local/mailtagline/*http://local.yahoo.co= m.au" target=3D_blank> Get started</a>.= --0-180865187-1251138348=:47911--

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