Subject: Re: Perception as memory ... From: Diana Deutsch <ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:52:45 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>Hi Leon, Interesting! Jane Gitschier and her group at UCSF did a web study from which they concluded (as did others anecdotally before them) that AP labeling of notes tends to move in the upward direction with age, but in my recollection this claim wasn't accompanied by a test of statistical significance. I found that I was beginning to make semitone errors in either direction, but recently with some practice have been able largely to overcome this. I'm thinking that perhaps the basic alteration is peripheral in origin, but that one can compensate for it by readjusting ones categories centrally. Regards, Diana On Aug 25, 2009, at 12:44 AM, Leon van Noorden wrote: > Hi Diana, > my absolute labeling of notes has definitely gone up one step (a > "do" sounds rather more like a "re"). I am 64 now. > I have noticed this already quite some years now. 10 or 20 years. > But I can shift my grid now quite easily. Something I could > absolutely not do at younger age, say the first 20 years of my life. > In the kind of experimental music I have been doing all my life and > still do, in a small music group, I had to get rid of any standard > tonal reference system. Only the sound counts. > Regards, > Leon > > On 25 Aug 2009, at 02:16, Diana Deutsch wrote: > >> Hi Kevin, >> >> I hadn't heard that anecdote about Benjamin Britten beginning to >> name notes flat - that's very interesting. Many people say that >> AP'ers begin to make errors in the sharp direction, but that's not >> been my experience - it seems to me that there's a lot of >> individual variation here. If by chance you know of a printed >> source about the Benjamin Britten story, I'd be grateful to hear >> about it. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Diana >> >> >> >> On Aug 24, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Kevin Austin wrote: >> >>> Thanks Diana >>> >>> I am seldom serious about anything I say; life is too short to be >>> taken seriously, and too serious to be taken lightly. >>> >>> My reference point, as I noted, [ ... My experience with some >>> others with absolute pitch has been that they don't "hear" chords. >>> One person told me that she did tonal harmonic analysis not by >>> hearing the chord and its function, but by hearing the notes and >>> doing a rapid [reverse engineering] analysis.... ] was four people >>> with whom I have had this discussion. I did not reference "people >>> with absolute pitch". >>> >>> From the discussions with these four (and a few others), I am >>> considering that those with absolute pitch occupy a different >>> perceptual universe than the one I live in. Regrettably, I may >>> have tried to oversimplify the description. On occasion, special >>> occasions, I ask the following question: "At the end of the second >>> movement of the Beethoven Eighth Symphony, do you hear that the >>> cadence, as a full-close cadence, is successful?" I do not hear it >>> thus; I hear the Ab which occurs just before the end, even though >>> it is 'canceled' by a following A, as shifting the tonal center >>> from Bb to Eb. Over the years, three of my colleagues who have >>> taught music theory have then told me that they ... actually don't >>> hear tonally. This is another thread for another list. >>> >>> The individual with enough theory and absolute pitch then told me >>> that s/he 'really couldn't tell' whether the key had changed, but >>> the score indicates that it hadn't. I don't know what to make of >>> these anecdotes. >>> >>> In one conversation about transposition and absolute pitch, two >>> pieces of information came out. The famous one about Britten's >>> 'slipped' pitch, where C major in his later life mapped out as B >>> major, and the other that compared transposition to being like >>> reading in different fonts, but this didn't make sense to me so I >>> have not told anyone about it. >>> >>> I am not AP. >>> >>> >>> ?? >>> >>> Best >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2009, Aug 24, at 4:23 PM, Diana Deutsch wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Dear Kevin, >>>> >>>> You can't be serious in saying that people with absolute pitch >>>> don't 'hear' chords. It's true that we can pick out the names of >>>> notes within a chord in addition to hearing it, but of course we >>>> perceive pitch relationships at the same time. >>>> >>>> I quote from Arthur Rubenstein's autobiography: 'My young years', >>>> in which he describes an interview he had with the great >>>> Professor Joachim when he was about four years old: >>>> >>>> 'First he asked me to call out the notes of many tricky chords he >>>> struck on the piano, and then I had to prove my perfect ear in >>>> other ways. And finally, I remember, he made me play back the >>>> beautiful second theme of Schubert's Unfinished Symphony after he >>>> had hummed it. I had to find the right harmonies, and later >>>> transpose the tune into another tonality'. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Diana >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Professor Diana Deutsch >>>> Department of Psychology >>>> University of California, San Diego >>>> 9500 Gilman Dr. #0109 >>>> La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA >>>> >>>> 858-453-1558 (tel) >>>> 858-453-4763 (fax) >>>> >>>> http://deutsch.ucsd.edu >>>> http://www.philomel.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 24, 2009, at 7:05 AM, Kevin Austin wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks for the reply. >>>>> >>>>> My experience is that perception is unique and individual -- >>>>> statistical in nature. >>>>> >>>>> The training example is interesting. What I didn't mention is >>>>> that in three cases I 'tested', synesthetes, all three with >>>>> absolute pitch and absolute color, they did not have the >>>>> sensation of integration of the 10-note chord. They simple named >>>>> the 10 notes in ascending order on hearing the sound for under a >>>>> second. My experience with some others with absolute pitch has >>>>> been that they don't "hear" chords. One person told me that she >>>>> did tonal harmonic analysis not by hearing the chord and its >>>>> function, but by hearing the notes and doing a rapid [reverse >>>>> engineering] analysis. All three chose to be in the visual arts >>>>> and keep music as a hobby. >>>>> >>>>> One of the three prepared a 10 meter-long score of the first >>>>> movement of the Bartok Music for Strings, Percussion and >>>>> Celeste, in graph form, by ear. Each pitch class was represented >>>>> by a different color (her color <-> pitch-class mapping). She >>>>> reported difficulty in only one place, in the lead-up to the >>>>> central (octave) unison, where certain inner voices appeared in >>>>> the wrong octave. I think this had to do with the quality of the >>>>> recording she was working from, and the (low) quality headphones >>>>> she used. She did this all with relative ease and I realized >>>>> (again) how dwarfish my own hearing is in such an environment. >>>>> >>>>> At some point in this on-going discussion, there may be a topic >>>>> on continuous and quantized time. Another time maybe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best >>>>> >>>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > >