Re: AUDITORY Digest - 16 Jul 2009 to 17 Jul 2009 (#2009-162) (Christine Rankovic )

Subject: Re: AUDITORY Digest - 16 Jul 2009 to 17 Jul 2009 (#2009-162) From: Christine Rankovic <rankovic@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 11:33:45 -0400 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY> Jont: Did they provide an equation? If so, what was it? Tina ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jont Allen" <jontalle@xxxxxxxx> To: <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 1:34 AM Subject: Re: AUDITORY Digest - 16 Jul 2009 to 17 Jul 2009 (#2009-162) > Dear All, > > For the record, the mel scale and the cochlear map (Greenwoods function), > namely the location of peak resp vs location along the BM, are the same > thing (within experimental error). This function was first derived by > Steinberg back in 1930, and again several times in Fletcher's work, by > several means. I have discussed this relation many times in various review > papers, and would be happy to provide refs and even pdfs for those of you > interested. In any case, there is no mystery here. > > The cochlear map (as its called) shows up in the articulation index, > distortion products, speech perception, pitch perception, masking > experiments, excitation patterns, etc, etc. Any time the cochlea is > relevant to some experimental result, this function appears. IMO it should > be called the Fletcher map rather than Greenwoods function (I do > appreciate that Don Greenwood fully appreciated it, and promoted the > concept, and did a great job of explaining it to the world, but then > Fletcher and Steinberg clearly were the first to describe it, as best I > know). Right Don? Much credit is due you, and so delivered. > > Jont > > AUDITORY automatic digest system wrote: >> There are 6 messages totalling 551 lines in this issue. >> >> Topics of the day: >> >> 1. AUDITORY Digest - 15 Jul 2009 to 16 Jul 2009 (#2009-161) >> 2. frequency to mel formula (4) >> 3. Survey: music cognition courses >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:24:19 -0700 >> From: Margaret Mortz <migsmortz@xxxxxxxx> >> Subject: Re: AUDITORY Digest - 15 Jul 2009 to 16 Jul 2009 (#2009-161) >> >> You might go back to Steven's original work which I found in >> scholar.google= >> .com >> >> "The relation of pitch to frequency: A revised scale" >> SS Stevens, J Volkmann - The American Journal of Psychology, 1940 - >> jstor.o= >> rg >> >> =A0 The 1940 article has 196 citations, and I believe there has been >> tuning of the mapping over the years. >> [The citations are at >> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=3D13168086733343486057&hl=3Den&num= >> =3D100] >> >> There's another reference at >> SS Stevens, J Volkmann, EB Newman - J. Acoust. Soc. Am, 1937 >> >> There's a later reference in Steven's book via google.books >> >> Psychophysics >> =A0By Stanley Smith Stevens, Geraldine Stevens >> >> http://tinyurl.com/kkvpsd >> or: >> http://books.google.com/books?hl=3Den&lr=3D&id=3Dr5JOHlXX8bgC&oi=3Dfnd&pg= >> =3DPR13&ots=3D4lcYLbTP9E&sig=3DmgminuGa_-Sv9_AqTLf4e3NXv4k >> >> Margaret >> >> <LISTSERV@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> AUDITORY Digest - 15 Jul 2009 to 16 Jul 2009 (#2009-161) >>> >>> Table of contents: >>> >>> frequency to mel formula (3) >>> Academic position in audiology >>> AUDITORY Digest - 14 Jul 2009 to 15 Jul 2009 (#2009-160) >>> >>> frequency to mel formula >>> >>> Re: frequency to mel formula (07/16) >>> From: Jon Boley <jdb@xxxxxxxx> >>> Re: frequency to mel formula (07/16) >>> From: "Ferguson, Sarah Hargus" <safergus@xxxxxxxx> >>> Re: frequency to mel formula (07/15) >>> From: "Richard F. Lyon" <DickLyon@xxxxxxxx> >>> >>> Academic position in audiology >>> >>> Academic position in audiology (07/16) >>> From: Sylvie H=E9bert <sylvie.hebert@xxxxxxxx> >>> >>> AUDITORY Digest - 14 Jul 2009 to 15 Jul 2009 (#2009-160) >>> >>> Re: AUDITORY Digest - 14 Jul 2009 to 15 Jul 2009 (#2009-160) (07/16) >>> From: Douglas Creelman <creelman@xxxxxxxx> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> Browse the AUDITORY online archives. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:22:33 +0200 >> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?FARNER_Snorre_Balli=E8re?= <farner@xxxxxxxx> >> Subject: Re: frequency to mel formula >> >> Dear list, >> >> I've had a look in JASA 1937 and can confirm that the paper >> >> "A Scale for the Measurement of the Psychological Magnitude Pitch" >> by S.S. Stevens, J. Volkmann, E.B. Newman, J. Acoust. Soc. Am., vol. 8 >> (1937), pp. 185-190 >> >> introduces "mel" as a unit for perceived pitch. The first occurence of >> "mel" is accompanied by the foot note: >> "The name 'mel' was chosen as a name for the subjective pitch unit. It >> was taken from the root of the word melody." >> >> There's no formula, but experimental data for perceived half-pitch >> frequencies and a plot of mel vs. Hz. It deviates from the formula later >> adopted. Merely judging from the title of the 1940 AJP paper ("The >> relation of pitch to frequency: A revised scale"), the latter seems to >> be a better reference for the mel scale than the 1937 paper. >> >> Best regards, >> -Snorre Farner >> >> On ven. 17 juil.09, at 07:24, Margaret Mortz wrote: >> >>> You might go back to Steven's original work which I found in >>> scholar.google.com >>> >>> "The relation of pitch to frequency: A revised scale" >>> SS Stevens, J Volkmann - The American Journal of Psychology, 1940 - >>> jstor.org >>> >>> The 1940 article has 196 citations, and I believe there has been >>> tuning of the mapping over the years. >>> [The citations are at >>> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=13168086733343486057&hl=en&num=100 ] >>> >>> There's another reference at >>> SS Stevens, J Volkmann, EB Newman - J. Acoust. Soc. Am, 1937 >>> >>> There's a later reference in Steven's book via google.books >>> >>> Psychophysics >>> By Stanley Smith Stevens, Geraldine Stevens >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/kkvpsd >>> or: >>> http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=r5JOHlXX8bgC&oi=fnd&pg=PR13&ots=4lcYLbTP9E&sig=mgminuGa_-Sv9_AqTLf4e3NXv4k >>> >>> Margaret >>> >> >> On jeu. 16 juil.09, at 16:27, Ferguson, Sarah Hargus wrote: >> >>> Following Jim's tips, I found the mel formula appears on p. 128 in the >>> 2nd edition of O'Shaughnessy. It's dubbed formula 4.2, and reads m = >>> 2595log(1+f/700). The full reference for the book is >>> >>> O'Shaughnessy, D. (2000). Speech communications: Human and machine (2nd >>> ed.). New York: IEEE Press. >>> >>> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >>> Sarah Hargus Ferguson, Ph.D., CCC-A >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Speech-Language-Hearing: Sciences and Disorders >>> University of Kansas >>> Dole Center >>> 1000 Sunnyside Ave., Room 3001 >>> Lawrence, KS 66045 >>> office: (785)864-1116 >>> Speech Acoustics and Perception Lab: (785)864-0610 >>> http://www.ku.edu/~splh/Faculty/FergusonBio.html >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception >>> [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx On Behalf Of James W. Beauchamp >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:55 PM >>> To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Re: frequency to mel formula >>> >>> It would be good if someone could double check the O'Shaugnessy >>> reference, as given by Dan earlier today: >>> >>>> O'Shaughnessy, D. (1978) Speech communication: Human and machine. >>>> Addison-Wesley, New York, page 150. >>> I think the title is actually Speech Communications: Human and Machine. >>> In the archived message >>> http://www.auditory.org/mhonarc/2008/msg00189.html >>> Dan gives the date of the book as 1987, so I'm not sure which is >>> correct. >>> At any rate, it is possible to buy a second edition of the book, which >>> is >>> copyrighted 2000. However, when perusing the Contents and the Index it >>> looks like the page has changed. Pages for 'mel scale' in the Index are >>> 128, 191, and 214. I hope the formula made it. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> Original message: >>>> From: Dan Ellis <dpwe@xxxxxxxx> >>>> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:55:25 -0400 >>>> To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx >>>> Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] frequency to mel formula >>>> Comments: To: "James D. Miller" <jamdmill@xxxxxxxx> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure if this is worth discussing on the full list, but... >>>> >>>> After the discussion last year I actually got a hold of the Beranek >>>> 1949 book from our library's cold storage, and the reference is wrong. >>>> In the book, Beranek gives empirical values for the Mel scale, but no >>>> equation. Clearly, this reference got mangled somewhere along the >>>> way: there may be a different early Beranek reference, but it isn't >>>> this one. >>>> >>>> I think Fant is the more appropriate reference (for log(1+f/1000)) and >>>> O'Shaugnessy for log(1+f/700). >>>> >>>> DAn. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:56:23 +0200 >> From: Guillaume Lemaitre <Guillaume.Lemaitre@xxxxxxxx> >> Subject: Re: frequency to mel formula >> >> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >> --------------020304060601060400050204 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by >> torrent.cc.mcgill.ca id n6HCuRvY004064 >> >> Dear list >> Another lead: Malcom Slaney implemented mfcc calculations in the >> Matlab=20 >> Auditory Toolbox using a method that is different from the formulae=20 >> previously cited on the list. Once I compared his method to the >> formula=20 >> 2595*log10(1+hz/700) and found little difference. Malcom may remember=20 >> where he devised the method from (I would bet from Rabiner's book?). >> >> By the way, I found the log10(1+hz/700) formula in the following=20 >> conference paper: >> @xxxxxxxx{mol01, >> author =3D "Sirko Molau and Michael Pitz and Ralf Schl=FCter and >> Hermann= >> Ney", >> title =3D "Computing Mel-Frequency Cepstral Coefficients on the >> Power=20 >> Spectrum", >> booktitle =3D {International Conference on Acoustic, Speech and >> Signal= >> =20 >> Processing}, >> year =3D {2001}, >> address =3D {Salt Lake City, UT}, >> month =3D {June}, >> } >> I don't currently have the paper at hand, but if someone could check,=20 >> they may cite their source. >> Hope that it helps. >> Best regards >> Guillaume >> >> >> --=20 >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> --- >> >> Guillaume Lemaitre, PhD >> >> / >> / >> >> Equipe Perception et Design Sonores / >> >> Sound Perception and Design Team >> >> >> STMS-IRCAM-CNRS UMR 9912 >> >> 1, place Igor Stravinsky F-75004 Paris - FRANCE >> >> tel : (+33 1) 44.78.48.38 >> >> fax : (+33 1) 44.78.15.40 >> >> e-mail : lemaitre@xxxxxxxx >> >> --------------------------------------=20 >> -------------------------------------- >> >> >> --------------020304060601060400050204 >> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> >> <html> >> <head> >> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> >> <title></title> >> </head> >> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> >> Dear list >> Another lead: Malcom Slaney implemented mfcc calculations in the Matlab >> Auditory Toolbox using a method that is different from the formulae >> previously cited on the list. Once I compared his method to the formula >> 2595*log10(1+hz/700) and found little difference. Malcom may remember >> where he devised the method from (I would bet from Rabiner's book?). >> >> By the way, I found the  log10(1+hz/700) formula in the following >> conference paper: >> @xxxxxxxx{mol01, >>  author = "Sirko Molau and Michael Pitz and Ralf Schlüter and >> Hermann >> Ney", >>   title = "Computing Mel-Frequency Cepstral Coefficients on the >> Power >> Spectrum", >>   booktitle = {International Conference on Acoustic, Speech  >> and Signal >> Processing}, >>   year =      {2001}, >>   address =      {Salt Lake City, UT}, >>   month =      {June}, >> } >> I don't currently have the paper at hand, but if someone could check, >> they may cite their source. >> Hope that it helps. >> Best regards >> Guillaume >> >> >> <div class="moz-signature">-- >> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; "> >> <meta http-equiv="Content-Style-Type" content="text/css"> >> <title></title> >> <meta name="Generator" content="Cocoa HTML Writer"> >> <meta name="CocoaVersion" content="824.42"> >> <style type="text/css"> >> p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica} >> </style> >> > class="p1">---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Guillaume Lemaitre, PhD >> >> >> Equipe Perception et Design Sonores / >> Sound Perception and Design Team >> >> >> >> STMS-IRCAM-CNRS     UMR 9912 >> >> 1, place Igor Stravinsky F-75004 Paris - FRANCE >> tel  : >> (+33 1) 44.78.48.38 >> fax : (+33 1) 44.78.15.40 >> e-mail  : >> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" >> href="mailto:lemaitre@xxxxxxxx">lemaitre@xxxxxxxx</a> >> --------------------------------------> class="Apple-converted-space"> >> -------------------------------------- >> </div> >> </body> >> </html> >> >> --------------020304060601060400050204-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:04:21 -0600 >> From: Julius Smith <jos@xxxxxxxx> >> Subject: Re: frequency to mel formula >> >> Hi Jim, >> >> Do you have a feel for why the mel scale is used instead of, say, Bark or >> ERB scales? >> >> Just curious, >> Julius >> >> At 11:11 AM 7/15/2009, James W. Beauchamp wrote: >>> Dear List, >>> >>> On the Wikipedia page >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_frequency_scale >>> >>> a formula for computing frequency in terms of mels is given as: >>> >>> mel = log(1 + fr/700)*1127 . >>> >>> It is easily inverted to fr = 700*exp(mel/1127 - 1) . >>> >>> My question is: Where do these formulas come from? I.e., I need >>> a journal reference for these formulas. >>> >>> Thanks much, >>> >>> Jim Beauchamp >>> Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >> >> "Anybody who knows all about nothing knows everything" -- Leonard >> Susskind >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:00:26 -0400 >> From: Fred Herzfeld <herzfeld@xxxxxxxx> >> Subject: frequency to mel formula >> >> Guillaume and list, >> >> Malcom's formula and the others are actually the same. He used [log base >> 10] instead of >> [log base 2]. >> >> Fred >> ============================================= >> Fred Herzfeld, MIT '54 >> 78 Glynn Marsh Drive #59 >> Brunswick, Ga.31525 >> USA >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:07:44 -0800 >> From: Aniruddh Patel <apatel@xxxxxxxx> >> Subject: Survey: music cognition courses >> >> --=====================_272854234==.ALT >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >> >> Dear List, >> >> I'm trying to collect some information on music perception/cognition >> courses >> being offered today. >> >> If you are involved in teaching such a course, I'd like to invite >> you to provide the information below **by July 27**. I will be collating >> the info >> and presenting it at the upcoming Society for Music Perception and >> Cognition >> (SMPC) meeting, Aug 3-7, in Indianapolis, Indiana: >> >> http://music.iupui.edu/smpc2009/ >> >> If you don't teach a course on this topic, but know a colleague who does, >> please feel free to forward this message to him/her, even if he/she >> is in a different department. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ani Patel >> President, SMPC >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Summer 2009 Music cognition course survey >> >> Name of university >> >> Location of university (City, State/Region, Country) >> >> Name of course >> >> Department/Program in which it is offered >> >> Level (undergraduate, graduate) >> >> Names and home departments of professor(s) >> >> How old is the course (what year was it created)? >> >> How often is it offered (e.g., yearly, every other year)? >> >> What is the typical enrollment? >> >> Has enrollment grown, shrunk, or remained the same in the past few >> years? >> >> In the latest class, did you use any books? If so, which ones? >> >> Course website (if it exists) >> >> If you can, please provide a one-sentence description of course aims. >> >> >> >> Aniruddh D. Patel, Ph.D. >> Esther J. Burnham Senior Fellow >> The Neurosciences Institute >> 10640 John Jay Hopkins Drive >> San Diego, CA 92121 >> >> 858-626-2085 tel >> 858-626-2099 fax >> apatel@xxxxxxxx >> http://www.nsi.edu/users/patel >> >> --=====================_272854234==.ALT >> Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" >> >> <html> >> <body> >> Dear List, >> I'm trying to collect some information on music perception/cognition >> courses >> being offered today. >> If you are involved in teaching such a course, I'd like to invite >> you to provide the information below **by July 27**.  I will be >> collating the info >> and presenting it at the upcoming Society for Music Perception and >> Cognition >> (SMPC) meeting, Aug 3-7, in Indianapolis, Indiana: >> <a href="http://music.iupui.edu/smpc2009/" >> eudora="autourl">http://music.iupui.edu/smpc2009/</a> >> If you don't teach a course on this topic, but know a colleague who >> does, >> please feel free to forward this message to him/her, even if he/she >> is in a different department. >> Thanks, >> Ani Patel >> President, SMPC >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Summer 2009 Music cognition course survey >> <pre>Name of university >> >> Location of university (City, State/Region, Country) >> >> Name of course >> >> Department/Program in which it is offered >> >> Level (undergraduate, graduate) >> >> Names and home departments of professor(s) >> >> How old is the course (what year was it created)? >> >> How often is it offered (e.g., yearly, every other year)? >> >> What is the typical enrollment? >> >> Has enrollment grown, shrunk, or remained the same in the past few  >> years? >> >> In the latest class, did you use any books?  If so, which ones? >> >> Course website (if it exists) >> >> If you can, please provide a one-sentence description of course aims. >> >> >> </pre><x-sigsep></x-sigsep> >> Aniruddh D. Patel, Ph.D. >> Esther J. Burnham Senior Fellow >> The Neurosciences Institute >> 10640 John Jay Hopkins Drive >> San Diego, CA 92121 >> 858-626-2085 tel >> 858-626-2099 fax >> apatel@xxxxxxxx >> <a href="http://www.nsi.edu/users/patel" >> eudora="autourl">http://www.nsi.edu/users/patel >> </a></body> >> </html> >> >> --=====================_272854234==.ALT-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of AUDITORY Digest - 16 Jul 2009 to 17 Jul 2009 (#2009-162) >> *************************************************************** >> >

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DAn Ellis <dpwe@ee.columbia.edu>
Electrical Engineering Dept., Columbia University