Subject: Re: AUDITORY Digest - 16 Jul 2009 to 17 Jul 2009 (#2009-162) From: Jont Allen <jontalle@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 00:34:45 -0500 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>Dear All, For the record, the mel scale and the cochlear map (Greenwoods function), namely the location of peak resp vs location along the BM, are the same thing (within experimental error). This function was first derived by Steinberg back in 1930, and again several times in Fletcher's work, by several means. I have discussed this relation many times in various review papers, and would be happy to provide refs and even pdfs for those of you interested. In any case, there is no mystery here. The cochlear map (as its called) shows up in the articulation index, distortion products, speech perception, pitch perception, masking experiments, excitation patterns, etc, etc. Any time the cochlea is relevant to some experimental result, this function appears. IMO it should be called the Fletcher map rather than Greenwoods function (I do appreciate that Don Greenwood fully appreciated it, and promoted the concept, and did a great job of explaining it to the world, but then Fletcher and Steinberg clearly were the first to describe it, as best I know). Right Don? Much credit is due you, and so delivered. Jont AUDITORY automatic digest system wrote: > There are 6 messages totalling 551 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. AUDITORY Digest - 15 Jul 2009 to 16 Jul 2009 (#2009-161) > 2. frequency to mel formula (4) > 3. Survey: music cognition courses > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:24:19 -0700 > From: Margaret Mortz <migsmortz@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: AUDITORY Digest - 15 Jul 2009 to 16 Jul 2009 (#2009-161) > > You might go back to Steven's original work which I found in scholar.google= > .com > > "The relation of pitch to frequency: A revised scale" > SS Stevens, J Volkmann - The American Journal of Psychology, 1940 - jstor.o= > rg > > =A0 The 1940 article has 196 citations, and I believe there has been > tuning of the mapping over the years. > [The citations are at > http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=3D13168086733343486057&hl=3Den&num= > =3D100] > > There's another reference at > SS Stevens, J Volkmann, EB Newman - J. Acoust. Soc. Am, 1937 > > There's a later reference in Steven's book via google.books > > Psychophysics > =A0By Stanley Smith Stevens, Geraldine Stevens > > http://tinyurl.com/kkvpsd > or: > http://books.google.com/books?hl=3Den&lr=3D&id=3Dr5JOHlXX8bgC&oi=3Dfnd&pg= > =3DPR13&ots=3D4lcYLbTP9E&sig=3DmgminuGa_-Sv9_AqTLf4e3NXv4k > > Margaret > > <LISTSERV@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >> AUDITORY Digest - 15 Jul 2009 to 16 Jul 2009 (#2009-161) >> >> Table of contents: >> >> frequency to mel formula (3) >> Academic position in audiology >> AUDITORY Digest - 14 Jul 2009 to 15 Jul 2009 (#2009-160) >> >> frequency to mel formula >> >> Re: frequency to mel formula (07/16) >> From: Jon Boley <jdb@xxxxxxxx> >> Re: frequency to mel formula (07/16) >> From: "Ferguson, Sarah Hargus" <safergus@xxxxxxxx> >> Re: frequency to mel formula (07/15) >> From: "Richard F. Lyon" <DickLyon@xxxxxxxx> >> >> Academic position in audiology >> >> Academic position in audiology (07/16) >> From: Sylvie H=E9bert <sylvie.hebert@xxxxxxxx> >> >> AUDITORY Digest - 14 Jul 2009 to 15 Jul 2009 (#2009-160) >> >> Re: AUDITORY Digest - 14 Jul 2009 to 15 Jul 2009 (#2009-160) (07/16) >> From: Douglas Creelman <creelman@xxxxxxxx> >> >> ________________________________ >> Browse the AUDITORY online archives. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:22:33 +0200 > From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?FARNER_Snorre_Balli=E8re?= <farner@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: frequency to mel formula > > Dear list, > > I've had a look in JASA 1937 and can confirm that the paper > > "A Scale for the Measurement of the Psychological Magnitude Pitch" > by S.S. Stevens, J. Volkmann, E.B. Newman, J. Acoust. Soc. Am., vol. 8 > (1937), pp. 185-190 > > introduces "mel" as a unit for perceived pitch. The first occurence of > "mel" is accompanied by the foot note: > "The name 'mel' was chosen as a name for the subjective pitch unit. It > was taken from the root of the word melody." > > There's no formula, but experimental data for perceived half-pitch > frequencies and a plot of mel vs. Hz. It deviates from the formula > later adopted. Merely judging from the title of the 1940 AJP paper > ("The relation of pitch to frequency: A revised scale"), the latter > seems to be a better reference for the mel scale than the 1937 paper. > > Best regards, > -Snorre Farner > > On ven. 17 juil.09, at 07:24, Margaret Mortz wrote: > >> You might go back to Steven's original work which I found in >> scholar.google.com >> >> "The relation of pitch to frequency: A revised scale" >> SS Stevens, J Volkmann - The American Journal of Psychology, 1940 - >> jstor.org >> >> The 1940 article has 196 citations, and I believe there has been >> tuning of the mapping over the years. >> [The citations are at >> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=13168086733343486057&hl=en&num=100 >> ] >> >> There's another reference at >> SS Stevens, J Volkmann, EB Newman - J. Acoust. Soc. Am, 1937 >> >> There's a later reference in Steven's book via google.books >> >> Psychophysics >> By Stanley Smith Stevens, Geraldine Stevens >> >> http://tinyurl.com/kkvpsd >> or: >> http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=r5JOHlXX8bgC&oi=fnd&pg=PR13&ots=4lcYLbTP9E&sig=mgminuGa_-Sv9_AqTLf4e3NXv4k >> >> Margaret >> > > On jeu. 16 juil.09, at 16:27, Ferguson, Sarah Hargus wrote: > >> Following Jim's tips, I found the mel formula appears on p. 128 in the >> 2nd edition of O'Shaughnessy. It's dubbed formula 4.2, and reads m = >> 2595log(1+f/700). The full reference for the book is >> >> O'Shaughnessy, D. (2000). Speech communications: Human and machine >> (2nd >> ed.). New York: IEEE Press. >> >> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >> Sarah Hargus Ferguson, Ph.D., CCC-A >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Speech-Language-Hearing: Sciences and Disorders >> University of Kansas >> Dole Center >> 1000 Sunnyside Ave., Room 3001 >> Lawrence, KS 66045 >> office: (785)864-1116 >> Speech Acoustics and Perception Lab: (785)864-0610 >> http://www.ku.edu/~splh/Faculty/FergusonBio.html >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception >> [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx On Behalf Of James W. Beauchamp >> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:55 PM >> To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx >> Subject: Re: frequency to mel formula >> >> It would be good if someone could double check the O'Shaugnessy >> reference, as given by Dan earlier today: >> >>> O'Shaughnessy, D. (1978) Speech communication: Human and machine. >>> Addison-Wesley, New York, page 150. >> I think the title is actually Speech Communications: Human and >> Machine. >> In the archived message >> http://www.auditory.org/mhonarc/2008/msg00189.html >> Dan gives the date of the book as 1987, so I'm not sure which is >> correct. >> At any rate, it is possible to buy a second edition of the book, which >> is >> copyrighted 2000. However, when perusing the Contents and the Index it >> looks like the page has changed. Pages for 'mel scale' in the Index >> are >> 128, 191, and 214. I hope the formula made it. >> >> Jim >> >> Original message: >>> From: Dan Ellis <dpwe@xxxxxxxx> >>> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:55:25 -0400 >>> To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] frequency to mel formula >>> Comments: To: "James D. Miller" <jamdmill@xxxxxxxx> >>> >>> I'm not sure if this is worth discussing on the full list, but... >>> >>> After the discussion last year I actually got a hold of the Beranek >>> 1949 book from our library's cold storage, and the reference is >>> wrong. >>> In the book, Beranek gives empirical values for the Mel scale, but no >>> equation. Clearly, this reference got mangled somewhere along the >>> way: there may be a different early Beranek reference, but it isn't >>> this one. >>> >>> I think Fant is the more appropriate reference (for log(1+f/1000)) >>> and >>> O'Shaugnessy for log(1+f/700). >>> >>> DAn. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:56:23 +0200 > From: Guillaume Lemaitre <Guillaume.Lemaitre@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: frequency to mel formula > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > --------------020304060601060400050204 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by torrent.cc.mcgill.ca id n6HCuRvY004064 > > Dear list > Another lead: Malcom Slaney implemented mfcc calculations in the Matlab=20 > Auditory Toolbox using a method that is different from the formulae=20 > previously cited on the list. Once I compared his method to the formula=20 > 2595*log10(1+hz/700) and found little difference. Malcom may remember=20 > where he devised the method from (I would bet from Rabiner's book?). > > By the way, I found the log10(1+hz/700) formula in the following=20 > conference paper: > @xxxxxxxx{mol01, > author =3D "Sirko Molau and Michael Pitz and Ralf Schl=FCter and Hermann= > Ney", > title =3D "Computing Mel-Frequency Cepstral Coefficients on the Power=20 > Spectrum", > booktitle =3D {International Conference on Acoustic, Speech and Signal= > =20 > Processing}, > year =3D {2001}, > address =3D {Salt Lake City, UT}, > month =3D {June}, > } > I don't currently have the paper at hand, but if someone could check,=20 > they may cite their source. > Hope that it helps. > Best regards > Guillaume > > > --=20 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > --- > > Guillaume Lemaitre, PhD > > / > / > > Equipe Perception et Design Sonores / > > Sound Perception and Design Team > > > STMS-IRCAM-CNRS UMR 9912 > > 1, place Igor Stravinsky F-75004 Paris - FRANCE > > tel : (+33 1) 44.78.48.38 > > fax : (+33 1) 44.78.15.40 > > e-mail : lemaitre@xxxxxxxx > > --------------------------------------=20 > -------------------------------------- > > > --------------020304060601060400050204 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> > <html> > <head> > <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> > <title></title> > </head> > <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> > Dear list<br> > Another lead: Malcom Slaney implemented mfcc calculations in the Matlab > Auditory Toolbox using a method that is different from the formulae > previously cited on the list. Once I compared his method to the formula > 2595*log10(1+hz/700) and found little difference. Malcom may remember > where he devised the method from (I would bet from Rabiner's book?). <br> > <br> > By the way, I found the log10(1+hz/700) formula in the following > conference paper:<br> > @xxxxxxxx{mol01,<br> > author = "Sirko Molau and Michael Pitz and Ralf Schlüter and Hermann > Ney",<br> > title = "Computing Mel-Frequency Cepstral Coefficients on the Power > Spectrum",<br> > booktitle = {International Conference on Acoustic, Speech and Signal > Processing},<br> > year = {2001},<br> > address = {Salt Lake City, UT},<br> > month = {June},<br> > }<br> > I don't currently have the paper at hand, but if someone could check, > they may cite their source.<br> > Hope that it helps.<br> > Best regards<br> > Guillaume<br> > <br> > <br> > <div class="moz-signature">-- <br> > <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; "> > <meta http-equiv="Content-Style-Type" content="text/css"> > <title></title> > <meta name="Generator" content="Cocoa HTML Writer"> > <meta name="CocoaVersion" content="824.42"> > <style type="text/css"> > p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica} > </style> > <p class="p1">----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br> > </p> > Guillaume Lemaitre, PhD<br> > <p class="p1"><i><br> > </i></p> > <p class="p1">Equipe Perception et Design Sonores /</p> > <p class="p1">Sound Perception and Design Team<br> > </p> > <p class="p1"><br> > </p> > <p class="p1">STMS-IRCAM-CNRS UMR 9912<br> > </p> > <p class="p1">1, place Igor Stravinsky F-75004 Paris - FRANCE</p> > <p class="p1">tel<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>: > (+33 1) 44.78.48.38</p> > <p class="p1">fax : (+33 1) 44.78.15.40</p> > <p class="p1">e-mail<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>: > <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lemaitre@xxxxxxxx">lemaitre@xxxxxxxx</a></p> > <p class="p1">--------------------------------------<span > class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>--------------------------------------</p> > </div> > </body> > </html> > > --------------020304060601060400050204-- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:04:21 -0600 > From: Julius Smith <jos@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: frequency to mel formula > > Hi Jim, > > Do you have a feel for why the mel scale is used instead of, say, > Bark or ERB scales? > > Just curious, > Julius > > At 11:11 AM 7/15/2009, James W. Beauchamp wrote: >> Dear List, >> >> On the Wikipedia page >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_frequency_scale >> >> a formula for computing frequency in terms of mels is given as: >> >> mel = log(1 + fr/700)*1127 . >> >> It is easily inverted to fr = 700*exp(mel/1127 - 1) . >> >> My question is: Where do these formulas come from? I.e., I need >> a journal reference for these formulas. >> >> Thanks much, >> >> Jim Beauchamp >> Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > > "Anybody who knows all about nothing knows everything" -- Leonard Susskind > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:00:26 -0400 > From: Fred Herzfeld <herzfeld@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: frequency to mel formula > > Guillaume and list, > > Malcom's formula and the others are actually the same. He used [log base 10] instead of > [log base 2]. > > Fred > ============================================= > Fred Herzfeld, MIT '54 > 78 Glynn Marsh Drive #59 > Brunswick, Ga.31525 > USA > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:07:44 -0800 > From: Aniruddh Patel <apatel@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Survey: music cognition courses > > --=====================_272854234==.ALT > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Dear List, > > I'm trying to collect some information on music perception/cognition courses > being offered today. > > If you are involved in teaching such a course, I'd like to invite > you to provide the information below **by July 27**. I will be collating > the info > and presenting it at the upcoming Society for Music Perception and Cognition > (SMPC) meeting, Aug 3-7, in Indianapolis, Indiana: > > http://music.iupui.edu/smpc2009/ > > If you don't teach a course on this topic, but know a colleague who does, > please feel free to forward this message to him/her, even if he/she > is in a different department. > > Thanks, > > Ani Patel > President, SMPC > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Summer 2009 Music cognition course survey > > Name of university > > Location of university (City, State/Region, Country) > > Name of course > > Department/Program in which it is offered > > Level (undergraduate, graduate) > > Names and home departments of professor(s) > > How old is the course (what year was it created)? > > How often is it offered (e.g., yearly, every other year)? > > What is the typical enrollment? > > Has enrollment grown, shrunk, or remained the same in the past few > years? > > In the latest class, did you use any books? If so, which ones? > > Course website (if it exists) > > If you can, please provide a one-sentence description of course aims. > > > > Aniruddh D. Patel, Ph.D. > Esther J. Burnham Senior Fellow > The Neurosciences Institute > 10640 John Jay Hopkins Drive > San Diego, CA 92121 > > 858-626-2085 tel > 858-626-2099 fax > apatel@xxxxxxxx > http://www.nsi.edu/users/patel > > --=====================_272854234==.ALT > Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" > > <html> > <body> > Dear List,<br><br> > I'm trying to collect some information on music perception/cognition > courses<br> > being offered today.<br><br> > If you are involved in teaching such a course, I'd like to invite<br> > you to provide the information below **by July 27**. I will be > collating the info<br> > and presenting it at the upcoming Society for Music Perception and > Cognition<br> > (SMPC) meeting, Aug 3-7, in Indianapolis, Indiana:<br><br> > <a href="http://music.iupui.edu/smpc2009/" eudora="autourl">http://music.iupui.edu/smpc2009/</a><br><br> > If you don't teach a course on this topic, but know a colleague who > does,<br> > please feel free to forward this message to him/her, even if he/she<br> > is in a different department.<br><br> > Thanks,<br><br> > Ani Patel<br> > President, SMPC<br><br> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br> > Summer 2009 Music cognition course survey<br><br> > <pre>Name of university > > Location of university (City, State/Region, Country) > > Name of course > > Department/Program in which it is offered > > Level (undergraduate, graduate) > > Names and home departments of professor(s) > > How old is the course (what year was it created)? > > How often is it offered (e.g., yearly, every other year)? > > What is the typical enrollment? > > Has enrollment grown, shrunk, or remained the same in the past few > years? > > In the latest class, did you use any books? If so, which ones? > > Course website (if it exists) > > If you can, please provide a one-sentence description of course aims. > > > </pre><x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep> > Aniruddh D. Patel, Ph.D.<br> > Esther J. Burnham Senior Fellow<br> > The Neurosciences Institute<br> > 10640 John Jay Hopkins Drive<br> > San Diego, CA 92121<br><br> > 858-626-2085 tel<br> > 858-626-2099 fax<br> > apatel@xxxxxxxx<br> > <a href="http://www.nsi.edu/users/patel" eudora="autourl">http://www.nsi.edu/users/patel<br> > </a></body> > </html> > > --=====================_272854234==.ALT-- > > ------------------------------ > > End of AUDITORY Digest - 16 Jul 2009 to 17 Jul 2009 (#2009-162) > *************************************************************** >