Subject: Re: About silence and breath From: christopher jette <christopherjette@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:14:13 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--000e0cd28dc651e5c9046df95b12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings All, I have enjoyed this thread of discussion and while I may not be adding a great deal of substance to the discussion, I would like to make an observation. Kevin begins his response by qualifying his perspective as that of a composer, previously another responder elucidated the role of rests in demarcating phrases in traditional forms. This made me take a step back and say "what is the role of silence in music? depends on what you mean by music." This has obviously changed as music has changed and I can easily imagine a responder qualifying their remarks by asserting that they write music which is of X persuasion. This is all my way of saying that silence, rests, breaks, segmentation or what have you are part of a vernacular not a language. If this conversation were to poll millions of people across the world, the perspectives on what is meant by music and by silence.... that might be interesting and certainly there would be some common camps. It seems to me that the first step in modeling silence is to define in what context. In classical forms, indeed one must consider the phrase and the manner in which it commonly (even statistically) functioned. To this end I might point out the work of the composer Clarence Barlow in his program Autobusk and in the interest of disclosure he is also one of my teachers. Cheers~ Christopher On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Kevin Austin <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx>wrote: > Responding as a composer, not a scientist, in this context I have used the > word "segmentation" to mean to determine where something 'begins' and > 'ends', possibly a very low level (fundamental) process, and this (in my > use) is perceptual. Segmentation therefor occurs at many levels, largely > dependent upon the perceptual / cognitive processes of the individual. > > > Best > > Kevin > > > On 2009, Jul 5, at 11:21 AM, Pablo Hernan Rodriguez Zivic wrote: > > When you say segmentation you are refering to something like the grouping >> structure of Lerdhal and Jackendoff? >> > > 'Silence' in music (as noted by others) may be a perceptual phenomena, and >>> not related to having 'no acoustical event'. The Mahler First Symphony >>> begins from 'silence', and the silence is sustained (sic) behind the >>> acoustical events of the introduction. As a perceptual event, I consider >>> acoustical silence an implausibility. If you wish to model silence >>> acoustically, it looks like this 00000000000, however if you wish to model >>> silence in a 'musical' sense, you may wish to research [what I consider to >>> be] the first step in auditory scene analysis, segmentation. >>> >>> When you say segmentation you are refering to something like the >> grouping structure of Lerdhal and Jackendoff? >> >>> Please keep us informed on your progress. >>> >> Of course amigo! >> >> Saludos! >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 12:11:48 -0300 >>>> From: Pablo Hernan Rodriguez Zivic <elsonidoq@xxxxxxxx> >>>> Subject: About Silence >>>> >>>> Hello everyone! >>>> >>>> My name is Pablo. I apologize in advance of my english =D. >>>> >>>> I recently joined this mailing list because I'm doing some research >>>> about music. My intention is to use computational/statistical models to >>>> create music, and that models be driven by cognitive/musical claims (1). >>>> >>>> Since the very beginning of my research I had trouble modeling silence. >>>> The silence is not just another pitch which has the ability of not to >>>> sound. I think that silence has to be treated apart from pitches, but I >>>> don't know how. >>>> >>>> So here comes my question: Do you know anything I can read to help me >>>> out with this? >>>> >>>> Thanks you all! >>>> >>>> Pablo >>>> >>>> >>>> (1) If you are interested, you can hear an example here of what I've >>>> already done: http://lafhis.dc.uba.ar/%7Epzivic/E.nar.mid >>>> >>>> In that example, the piano is of Scott Joplin, and the solo is composed >>>> by mi program. The silences that you hear, are artificial, is just a >>>> simple rule that I >>>> introduced, if the solo plays all the time it gets annoying. >>>> >>>> >> -- www.cj.lovelyweather.com christopherjette@xxxxxxxx 617.869.3968 --000e0cd28dc651e5c9046df95b12 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings All,<br>I have enjoyed this thread of discussion and while I may = not be adding a great deal of substance to the discussion, I would like to = make an observation. Kevin begins his response by qualifying his perspectiv= e as that of a composer, previously another responder elucidated the role o= f rests in demarcating phrases in traditional forms. This made me take a st= ep back and say "what is the role of silence in music? depends on what= you mean by music." This has obviously changed as music has changed a= nd I can easily imagine a responder qualifying their remarks by asserting t= hat they write music which is of X persuasion. This is all my way of saying= that silence, rests, breaks, segmentation or what have you are part of a v= ernacular not a language. If this conversation were to poll millions of peo= ple across the world, the perspectives on what is meant by music and by sil= ence.... that might be interesting and certainly there would be some common= camps.<br> <br>It seems to me that the first step in modeling silence is to define in = what context. In classical forms, indeed one must consider the phrase and t= he manner in which it commonly (even statistically) functioned. To this end= I might point out the work of the composer Clarence Barlow in his program = Autobusk and in the interest of disclosure he is also one of my teachers. <= br> <br>Cheers~<br>Christopher<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 5,= 2009 at 10:30 AM, Kevin Austin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:kev= in.austin@xxxxxxxx">kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx</a>></span> wrote:<br>= <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, = 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Responding as a composer, not a scientist, in this context I have used the = word "segmentation" to mean to determine where something 'beg= ins' and 'ends', possibly a very low level (fundamental) proces= s, and this (in my use) is perceptual. Segmentation therefor occurs at many= levels, largely dependent upon the perceptual / cognitive processes of the= individual.<br> <br> <br> Best<br> <br> Kevin<br> <br> <br> On 2009, Jul 5, at 11:21 AM, Pablo Hernan Rodriguez Zivic wrote:<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, = 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> When you say segmentation you are refering to something like the grouping s= tructure of Lerdhal and Jackendoff?<br> </blockquote> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, = 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin= : 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> 'Silence' in music (as noted by others) may be a perceptual phenome= na, and not related to having 'no acoustical event'. The Mahler Fir= st Symphony begins from 'silence', and the silence is sustained (si= c) behind the acoustical events of the introduction. As a perceptual event,= I consider acoustical silence an implausibility. If you wish to model sile= nce acoustically, it looks like this 00000000000, however if you wish to mo= del silence in a 'musical' sense, you may wish to research [what I = consider to be] the first step in auditory scene analysis, segmentation.<br= > <br> </blockquote> When you say segmentation you are refering to something like the grouping s= tructure of Lerdhal and Jackendoff?<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, = 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Please keep us informed on your progress.<br> </blockquote> Of course amigo!<br> <br> Saludos!<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, = 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <br> <br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, = 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Date: =A0 =A0Sat, 4 Jul 2009 12:11:48 -0300<br> From: =A0 =A0Pablo Hernan Rodriguez Zivic <<a href=3D"mailto:elsonidoq@xxxxxxxx= MAIL.COM" target=3D"_blank">elsonidoq@xxxxxxxx</a>><br> Subject: About Silence<br> <br> Hello everyone!<br> <br> My name is Pablo. I apologize in advance of my english =3DD.<br> <br> I recently joined this mailing list because I'm doing some research<br> about music. My intention is to use computational/statistical models to<br> create music, and that models be driven by cognitive/musical claims (1).<br= > <br> Since the very beginning of my research I had trouble modeling silence.<br> The silence is not just another pitch which has the ability of not to<br> sound. I think that silence has to be treated apart from pitches, but I<br> don't know how.<br> <br> So here comes my question: Do you know anything I can read to help me<br> out with this?<br> <br> Thanks you all!<br> <br> Pablo<br> <br> <br> (1) If you are interested, you can hear an example here of what I've<br= > already done: <a href=3D"http://lafhis.dc.uba.ar/%7Epzivic/E.nar.mid" targe= t=3D"_blank">http://lafhis.dc.uba.ar/%7Epzivic/E.nar.mid</a><br> <br> In that example, the piano is of Scott Joplin, and the solo is composed<br> by mi program. The silences that you hear, are artificial, is just a simple= rule that I<br> introduced, if the solo plays all the time it gets annoying.<br> <br> </blockquote></blockquote> <br> </blockquote> </blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"http://www.c= j.lovelyweather.com">www.cj.lovelyweather.com</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:chri= stopherjette@xxxxxxxx">christopherjette@xxxxxxxx</a><br>617.869.3968<br> --000e0cd28dc651e5c9046df95b12--