Re: harmonic extraction (David Smith )

Subject: Re: harmonic extraction From: David Smith <smithd@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:15:04 -0500 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --_----------=_1238170504110350 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Please pardon the brevity of my previous post. I also noticed, while using an "exciter" effect, which adds harmonics to a signal that, in the presence of a signal with many even harmonics, I can't hear the addition of odd harmonics. My knowledge in this area is not extensive but I can think of a possible explanation: Successive in-phase addition of even harmonics produces a square wave. Successive in-phase addition of odd harmonics yields a triangle wave. A square wave has much more power than a triangle wave of the same peak amplitude so you have more signal.=20 Absorptive and dispersion losses are greater at higher pressure, not higher power. So triangle waves, composed of odd harmonics, lose a greater portion of their power to non-resonant or damped systems, cavities and membranes with partially absorptive components or boundaries. Speakers, headphones, ears, and air all contain partially absorptive components. If you lop off the top of a triangle wave you end up with something closer to a square wave, a signal which sounds like it has been built with in-phase even harmonics. Signals composed of components with partial phase differences would be more complicated. I have not considered them. Dave Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Bregman" To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] harmonic extraction Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:51:32 -0400 On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 9:58 AM, David Smith wrote: > Given the stimuli, I think you would be hard pressed to find a mechanical > system, > the atmosphere and ear included, which did not exhibit response at 200Hz. Dear David, Please expand on this. It's not clear how you intend this to explain Jim Bashford's observations. - Al ---------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Bregman" > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] harmonic extraction > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:46:37 -0400 > > > Dear James, > > This example of duplex perception, outside the domain of speech, and > clearly not involving two distinct mental "modules", is very > interesting, throws a different light on duplex perception of speech, > and is certainly worth further development and publication.. > > Best, > Al > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Albert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor > Psychology Department, McGill University > 1205 Docteur Penfield Avenue > Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1. > Office: Phone: (514) 398-6103 > Fax: (514) 398-4896 > Residence phone & fax: (514) 484-2592 > www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:35 AM, James Bashford wrote: >> Dear Xueliang Zhang, >> >> I was intrigued by the interchange between you, Yoshitaka Nakajima, and >> Al Bregman, and did some listening, diotically through headphones, to >> stimuli consisting of the first 10 harmonics of 100 Hz alternating with >> the >> 5 even harmonics of that stimulus (all harmonics were presented at the >> same >> level). With on/off times for each complex matched at either 0.5 sec or >> 1.0 >> sec (10 ms rise/fall), I hear a fully continous 200-Hz tone that matches >> the >> intensity and timbre of the isolated even-harmonic complex. More >> interesting, however, is that the 10-component =93all-harmonic=94 stimulus, >> which is heard intermittently, has not only the 100-Hz pitch of that >> complex >> but also retains the loudness and timbre of the all-harmonic stimulus as >> heard when it is presented in isolation. Were the even harmonics of the >> all-harmonic complex exclusively allocated to support perception of the >> continuous 200-Hz complex tone -- leaving only the odd-harmonics to >> support >> perception of the 100 Hz tone -- we would expect both a reduction in >> loudness and a clear shift in timbre to the =93hollow=94 quality >> characteristic >> of odd-harmonic signals. This suggests that the =93priming=94 or =93capture=94 >> effect observed with complex tones provides an example of duplex >> perception >> that requires neither a verbal stimulus nor dichotic presentation. As I >> recall, Al Bregman has previously suggested that such an effect might >> occur >> when nonverbal stimulus input is strongly ambiguous. >> >> This use of the even-harmonic components to support two simultaneous >> percepts (that of both the intermittent =93all-harmonic=94 tone and the >> continuous even-harmonic tone) contrasts sharply with the processing >> underlying the general phenomenon of illusory continuity that is observed >> when one sound alternates with a higher-intensity, potential masking >> sound. The latter effect, which has been called auditory induction >> (Warren, >> 1972), occurs with a wide variety of signals, such as tones alternating >> with >> other tones, noise alternating with higher intensity noise, or speech >> interrupted by noise (phonemic restoration). This type of continuity, in >> which there are no exactly matching components to be found between the >> alternating signals, does appear to involve subtractive or exclusive >> allocation. For interrupted tones, noise, or speech, continuity is >> obtained >> at the expense of the interrupting signal, which is reduced in loudness by >> an amount proportional to the extent the illusion (Warren et al., 1994). >> >> Warren, R. M., Obusek, C. and Ackroff, J. M. (1972). Auditory induction: >> Perceptual synthesis of absent sounds. Science, 176, 1149-1151. >> >> Warren, R. M., Bashford, J. A., Jr., Healy, E. W., and Brubaker, B. S. >> (1994). Auditory induction: Reciprocal changes in alternating sounds. >> Perception & Psychophysics, 55, 313-322. >> >> >> >> James Bashford >> >> On Mar 19, 2009, at 5:24 AM, xlzhang wrote: >> >> Dear list, >> A pure tone can extract corresponding harmonic from complex sound when >> appearing alternatively. I wonder if a harmonic sound can do the same job? >> For example, a complex sound with F0=3D200Hz appears with a complex sound >> with F0=3D100 Hz, can we get a continuous perception for F0=3D200Hz? >> Thank you for your answers in advance. >> >> Xueliang Zhang >> >> > > > > -- > > -- > Be Yourself @xxxxxxxx mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Albert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor Psychology Department, McGill University 1205 Docteur Penfield Avenue Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1. Office: Phone: (514) 398-6103 Fax: (514) 398-4896 Residence phone & fax: (514) 484-2592 www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=20 Be Yourself @xxxxxxxx mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com --_----------=_1238170504110350 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" <div> Please pardon the brevity of my previous post. I also noticed, w= hile using an "exciter" effect, which adds harmonics to a signal that, = in the presence of a signal with many even harmonics, I can't hear the = addition of odd harmonics.  My knowledge in this area is not extens= ive but I can think of a possible explanation: Successive in-phase a= ddition of even harmonics produces a square wave.  Successive in-p= hase addition of odd harmonics yields a triangle wave. A square wave ha= s much more power than a triangle wave of the same peak amplitude so yo= u have more signal.  Absorptive and dispersion losses are grea= ter at higher pressure, not higher power. So triangle waves, composed o= f odd harmonics, lose a greater portion of their power to non-resonant = or damped systems, cavities and membranes with partially absorptive com= ponents or boundaries.  Speakers, headphones, ears, and air all co= ntain partially absorptive components. If you lop off the top of = a triangle wave you end up with something closer to a square wave, a si= gnal which sounds like it has been built with in-phase even harmonics.<b= r> Signals composed of components with partial phase differences wou= ld be more complicated.  I have not considered them. Dave Smith= <blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: = 5px; padding-left: 5px;">----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Bregman" <al.bregman@xxxxxxxx> To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] harmonic extraction Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:51:32 -0400 On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 9:58 AM, David Smith <smithd@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Given the stimuli, I think you would be hard pressed to find a mechani= cal > system, > the atmosphere and ear included, which did not exhibit response at 200= Hz. Dear David, Please expand on this. It's not clear how you intend this to explain Jim Bashford's observations. - Al ---------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Bregman" > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] harmonic extraction > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:46:37 -0400 > > > Dear James, > > This example of duplex perception, outside the domain of speech, and<b= r> > clearly not involving two distinct mental "modules", is very > interesting, throws a different light on duplex perception of speech,<= br> > and is certainly worth further development and publication.. > > Best, > Al > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Albert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor > Psychology Department, McGill University > 1205 Docteur Penfield Avenue > Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1. > Office: Phone: (514) 398-6103 > Fax: (514) 398-4896 > Residence phone & fax: (514) 484-2592 > www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:35 AM, James Bashford wrote: >> Dear Xueliang Zhang, >> >>    I was intrigued by the interchange between you, = Yoshitaka Nakajima, and >> Al Bregman, and did some listening, diotically through headphones,= to >> stimuli consisting of the first 10 harmonics of 100 Hz alternating= with >> the >> 5 even harmonics of that stimulus (all harmonics were presented at= the >> same >> level).  With on/off times for each complex matched at e= ither 0.5 sec or >> 1.0 >> sec (10 ms rise/fall), I hear a fully continous 200-Hz tone that m= atches >> the >> intensity and timbre of the isolated even-harmonic complex. &= nbsp;More >> interesting, however, is that the 10-component =93all-harmonic=94 = stimulus, >> which is heard intermittently, has not only the 100-Hz pitch of th= at >> complex >> but also retains the loudness and timbre of the all-harmonic stimu= lus as >> heard when it is presented in isolation.  Were the even = harmonics of the >> all-harmonic complex exclusively allocated to support perception o= f the >> continuous 200-Hz complex tone -- leaving only the odd-harmonics t= o >> support >> perception of the 100 Hz tone -- we would expect both a reduction = in >> loudness and a clear shift in timbre to the =93hollow=94 quality<b= r> >> characteristic >> of odd-harmonic signals.  This suggests that the =93prim= ing=94 or =93capture=94 >> effect observed with complex tones provides an example of duplex<b= r> >> perception >> that requires neither a verbal stimulus nor dichotic presentation.=   As I >> recall, Al Bregman has previously suggested that such an effect mi= ght >> occur >> when nonverbal stimulus input is strongly ambiguous. >> >>       This use of the even-harmonic compo= nents to support two simultaneous >> percepts (that of both the intermittent =93all-harmonic=94 tone an= d the >> continuous even-harmonic tone) contrasts sharply with the processi= ng >> underlying the general phenomenon of illusory continuity that is o= bserved >> when one sound alternates with a higher-intensity, potential maski= ng >> sound.  The latter effect, which has been called auditor= y induction >> (Warren, >> 1972), occurs with a wide variety of signals, such as tones altern= ating >> with >> other tones, noise alternating with higher intensity noise, or spe= ech >> interrupted by noise (phonemic restoration).  This type = of continuity, in >> which there are no exactly matching components to be found between= the >> alternating signals, does appear to involve subtractive or exclusi= ve >> allocation.  For interrupted tones, noise, or speech, co= ntinuity is >> obtained >> at the expense of the interrupting signal, which is reduced in lou= dness by >> an amount proportional to the extent the illusion (Warren et al., = 1994). >> >> Warren, R. M., Obusek, C. and Ackroff, J. M. (1972). Auditory indu= ction: >> Perceptual synthesis of absent sounds. Science, 176, 1149-115= 1. >> >> Warren, R. M., Bashford, J. A., Jr., Healy, E. W., and Brubaker, B= . S. >> (1994). Auditory induction: Reciprocal changes in alternating soun= ds. >> Perception & Psychophysics, 55, 313-322. >> >> >> >> James Bashford >> >> On Mar 19, 2009, at 5:24 AM, xlzhang wrote: >> >> Dear list, >> A pure tone can extract corresponding harmonic from complex sound = when >> appearing alternatively. I wonder if a harmonic sound can do the s= ame job? >> For example, a complex sound with F0=3D200Hz appears with a comple= x sound >> with F0=3D100 Hz, can we get a continuous perception for F0=3D200H= z? >> Thank you for your answers in advance. >> >> Xueliang Zhang >> >> > > > > -- > > -- > Be Yourself @xxxxxxxx mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Albert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor Psychology Department, McGill University 1205 Docteur Penfield Avenue Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1. Office: Phone: (514) 398-6103 Fax: (514) 398-4896 Residence phone & fax: (514) 484-2592 www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- </smithd@xxxxxxxx></al.bregman@xxxxxxxx></blockquote> </div> --=20 <div> Be Yourself @xxxxxxxx mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at <a href=3D"http://www.mail.com/Product.aspx" t= arget=3D"_blank">www.mail.com</a>!</div> --_----------=_1238170504110350--

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