Subject: Re: information transmission analyses From: "Iftikhar Riaz (Lance) Nizami" <Nizamii2@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:04:12 EST List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>-------------------------------1235757852 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Dr. Pinter and others, A comprehensive critical review that argues that "The human being is NOT a Shannon communication channel" does not exist in print, to my knowledge. And no editor is going to allow such a paper to be published, because there are too many prominent people who stand to lose if their misinterpretations are made public. Some of those people are senior editors of well-known journals. There are, however, a number of published papers that question whether the use of information-transmission measures in psychology was really useful: Cronbach, L.J. (1955) On the non-rational application of information measures in psychology. In: Information theory in psychology (pp. 14-30), ed. H. Quastler. Glencoe, Illinois: The Free Press. Luce, R.D. (2003) Whatever happened to information theory in psychology? Rev. Gen. Psych. 7, 183-188. Gregory, R.L. (1980) Whatever happened to information theory? (2) Perception, 9, 489-492. Laming, D. (1973) Mathematical Psychology. Academic Press, NY. Ashby, F.G. (1995). Resurrecting information theory. The American Journal of Psychology, 108, 609-614. A outstanding (and unfairly ignored) paper that deals decisively with the issue of what "informational" absolute judgment experiments actually measure is: Siegel, W. (1972) Memory effects in the method of absolute judgment. Journal of Experimental Psychology, 94, 121-131. - Lance Nizami PhD, Decatur, GA 30030 In a message dated 2/26/2009 11:30:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, andzsinszan@xxxxxxxx writes: Dear Lance Nizami, What you wrote regarding Information Theory is quite interesting to me, as I daily meet people doing automatic speech recognition, whom are really difficulty to convince that there is life beyond information theory and Markov chains. Can you please give us some references that argues that "The human being is NOT a Shannon communication channel". Or at least focusing on the controversial relation between perception and information theory. I appreciate your help. Best regards. Gabor Pinter On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 1:44 AM, Iftikhar Riaz (Lance) Nizami <Nizamii2@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > I did my Master's on this subject, and had to chance to read Attneave and > the rest of the literature in depth. Information theory as applied to > psychology, as popularized by Attneave after Garner & Hake, has nothing at > all to do with transmission of anything. When applied to traditional > absolute judgment (identification) experiments, for example, it is merely an > alternative measure of short-term sensory memory. Which has nothing to do > with Claude Shannon's "general communications system". In your case, memory > capacity is probably what the analysis will indicate. I am surprised that > anyone uses the Garner-Hake information approach anymore; mathematical > psychologists (Duncan Luce, Donald Laming, Sandy MacRae, etc.) recognized > its severe limitations years ago and abandoned it. So (eventually) did > acoustics users like Neff and Lutfi. The human being is NOT a > Shannon communication channel. Granted, the measures that result from > processing the confusion matrix are covariance measures of a sort. In that > case, ordinary covariance measures may provide a more meaningful way of > analyzing your data. In response to your question, then, none of TRANS, > TRANS/INPUT or TRANS/TI are appropriate measures for your purposes. > Information theory doesn't work that way. Attneave got the math right, > but that had already been done; but Attneave's interpretations (after Garner > & Hake) were all dead wrong. - Lance Nizami BSc (Physics) MSc (Biomedical > Engineering) PhD (Psychophysics), Decatur, GA 30030 > > In a message dated 2/24/2009 4:54:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > caro_jacquier@xxxxxxxx writes: > > Dear members, > > I would like to analyse phonetic feature transmission (especially voicing > and place of articulation of french plosive consonants) on the basis of > individual confusion matrices. My study is about compressed speech > perception in dyslexic adults. > I have already downloaded the software for information transfer and SINFA > analysis (Stuart Rosen ) and I have run the analyses (on 32 subjects). > My first question is: which value is the more relevant in the report (TRANS, > TRANS/INPUT or TRANS/TI) ? > My second question is about individual confusion matrices: Do I have to do > one analyse per subject ? > > I hope that someone could help me. > Thank you very much. > Best regards, > > Caroline > > > > ________________________________ > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) -------------------------------1235757852 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16809" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20= Arial"=20 bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol= e_document=20 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2> <DIV>Dear Dr. Pinter and others, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A comprehensive critical review that argues that "The human being=20= is=20 NOT a Shannon communication channel" does not exist in print, to my=20 knowledge. And no editor is going to allow such a paper to be publishe= d,=20 because there are too many prominent people who stand to lose if their=20 misinterpretations are made public. Some of those people are senior=20 editors of well-known journals. There are, however, a number of publis= hed=20 papers that question whether the use of information-transmission measures in= =20 psychology was really useful:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cronbach, L.J. (1955) On the non-rational application of informat= ion=20 measures in psychology. In: Information theory in psychology (pp. 14-3= 0),=20 ed. H. Quastler. Glencoe, Illinois: The Free Press. </DIV> <DIV>Luce, R.D. (2003) Whatever happened to information theory in psychology= ?=20 Rev. Gen. Psych. 7, 183-188.</DIV> <DIV>Gregory, R.L. (1980) Whatever happened to information theory?=20 (2) Perception, 9, 489-492.</DIV> <DIV>Laming, D. (1973) Mathematical Psychology. Academic Press, NY.</DI= V> <DIV>Ashby, F.G. (1995). Resurrecting information theory. The American Journ= al=20 of Psychology, 108, 609-614.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A outstanding (and unfairly ignored) paper that deals decisively w= ith=20 the issue of what "informational" absolute judgment experiments actually mea= sure=20 is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Siegel, W. (1972) Memory effects in the method of absolute=20 judgment. Journal of Experimental Psychology, 94, 121-131.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Lance Nizami PhD, Decatur, GA 30030</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>In a message dated 2/26/2009 11:30:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20 andzsinszan@xxxxxxxx writes:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>Dear=20 Lance Nizami,<BR><BR>What you wrote regarding Information Theory is quite=20 interesting to<BR>me, as I daily meet people doing automatic speech=20 recognition, whom<BR>are really difficulty to convince that there is life=20 beyond<BR>information theory and Markov chains.<BR>Can you please give us=20= some=20 references that argues that "The human<BR>being is NOT a Shannon communica= tion=20 channel".<BR>Or at least focusing on the controversial relation between=20 perception<BR>and information theory.<BR><BR>I appreciate your=20 help.<BR><BR>Best regards.<BR><BR>Gabor=20 Pinter<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 1:44 AM,=20 Iftikhar Riaz (Lance) Nizami<BR><Nizamii2@xxxxxxxx> wrote:<BR>> I=20= did=20 my Master's on this subject, and had to chance to read Attneave and<BR>>= ;=20 the rest of the literature in depth. Information theory as applied=20 to<BR>> psychology, as popularized by Attneave after Garner=20 & Hake, has nothing at<BR>> all to do with transmission of=20 anything. When applied to traditional<BR>> absolute judgment=20 (identification) experiments, for example, it is merely an<BR>> alterna= tive=20 measure of short-term sensory memory. Which has nothing to do<BR>>= ;=20 with Claude Shannon's "general communications system". In your=20 case, memory<BR>> capacity is probably what the analysis will= =20 indicate. I am surprised that<BR>> anyone uses the Garner-Ha= ke=20 information approach anymore; mathematical<BR>> psychologists (Duncan L= uce,=20 Donald Laming, Sandy MacRae, etc.) recognized<BR>> its severe limitatio= ns=20 years ago and abandoned it. So (eventually) did<BR>> acoustics us= ers=20 like Neff and Lutfi. The human being is NOT a<BR>>=20 Shannon communication channel. Granted, the measures that=20 result from<BR>> processing the confusion matrix are covariance measure= s of=20 a sort. In that<BR>> case, ordinary covariance measures= may=20 provide a more meaningful way of<BR>> analyzing your data. In=20 response to your question, then, none of TRANS,<BR>> TRANS/INPUT o= r=20 TRANS/TI are appropriate measures for your purposes.<BR>> Information=20 theory doesn't work that way. Attneave got the math right,<BR>>=20 but that had already been done; but Attneave's interpretations=20 (after Garner<BR>> & Hake) were all dead wrong. - Lance Nizam= i=20 BSc (Physics) MSc (Biomedical<BR>> Engineering) PhD (Psychophysics),=20 Decatur, GA 30030<BR>><BR>> In a message dated 2/24/2009 4:54:12 A.M= .=20 Eastern Standard Time,<BR>> caro_jacquier@xxxxxxxx writes:<BR>><BR>&= gt;=20 Dear members,<BR>><BR>> I would like to analyse phonetic feature=20 transmission (especially voicing<BR>> and place of articulation of fren= ch=20 plosive consonants) on the basis of<BR>> individual=20 confusion matrices. My study is about compressed speech<BR>>=20 perception in dyslexic adults.<BR>> I have already downloaded the softw= are=20 for information transfer and SINFA<BR>> analysis (Stuart Rosen ) and I=20= have=20 run the analyses (on 32 subjects).<BR>> My first question is: whic= h=20 value is the more relevant in the report (TRANS,<BR>> TRANS/INPUT or=20 TRANS/TI) ?<BR>> My second question is about individual confusion matri= ces:=20 Do I have to do<BR>> one analyse per subject ?<BR>><BR>> I hope t= hat=20 someone could help me.<BR>> Thank you very much.<BR>> Best=20 regards,<BR>><BR>> Caroline<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>=20 ________________________________<BR>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Abo= ve.=20 See yours in just 2 easy steps!</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT><br/><font= style=3D"color:black;font:normal 10pt arial,san-serif;"> <hr style=3D"margi= n-top:10px"/><b>A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. <a href=3D"http://pr.at= wola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=3Dhttp:%2F%2Fwww= .freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%= 3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy steps!</a></b></font></DIV><= /BODY></HTML> -------------------------------1235757852--