Subject: Re: Cochlea Amplifier models : a new list From: Matt Flax <flatmax@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 03:02:46 +1000 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>Thank you Reinhart. On behalf of the list. You have finally walked a mind experiment which has led you to your version of the Compression amplifier. Before your one man show is finished, I would like to ask one more thing ... Please - did I prompt you there, or have you been publishing your way there ... can you please point us all to one of your papers which is most relevant ? I would dearly like to read it. _ _ _ | | | | | | | |_| |__ __ _ _ __ | | _____ | __| '_ \ / _` | '_ \| |/ / __| | |_| | | | (_| | | | | <\__ \ \__|_| |_|\__,_|_| |_|_|\_\___/ Matt On Sat, Oct 20, 2007 at 03:06:56PM +0000, reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx wrote: > Hello Matt and List, > > This one-man show is going to end soon now, I hope. > I insert some answers below. > > ----Ursprüngliche Nachricht---- > Von: flatmax@xxxxxxxx > Datum: 19.10.2007 03:00 > An: <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > Kopie: "reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx"<reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx> > Betreff: Re: Cochlea Amplifier models : a new list > > >Robles [1] Figure 14 - Phase increases away from stapes > >... agreed. > > Phase decreases, so the wave travels from base > towards apex. > > >I have no problem with Bekesey's PASSIVE > >travelling wave... it is a good thing he won a Nobel peace > >prize for it ... in my opinion. To us he is like Newton. > >Would you agree ? A g-dfather of Auditory physics. > > Yes, I think both Sir Isaac and von Békésy were creative, > energetic and courageous. Nevertheless, I'd like to ask > the List a question (which is only weakly related to the > present cochlear-amplifier discussion): On page 443 > of his book "Experiments in Hearing" von Békésy > mentions "the gelatinous mass of the cochlear duct". > Was that the TM? > > >Ren [2] Figure 2 - BM motion and emissions have roughly > >the same phase and same delay. The activity in the > >cochlea - with respect to DPOAEs and other OAEs - are > >as fast (or slightly faster depending on tonotopic > >location) as the travelling wave. Indeed it is now emerging > >that apical emissions are quite likely FASTER ! > > I just re-read T. Ren, W. X. He, and A. L. Nuttall (2006), > "Backward propagation of otoacoustic emissions in the > cochlea", in "Auditory Mechanisms", A.L. Nuttall et al., eds., > World Scientific, New Jersey, etc.: 79-85. > They conclude:"[...] This result supports the cochlear-fluid- > compression-wave model and not the backward-travelling- > wave theory". > > Remember that fast (1500 m/s) compressional waves > exist also, e.g., during ordinary exposures of the cochlea > to sine tones. These waves have large wavelengths, > no significant across-BM liquid-pressure difference, and thus > yield no signals from the IHC's to the brain. Compressional > waves can, however, travel from the cochlea to a > microphone in the ear canal and be registered there. > > "My" model is therefore not affected by the otoacoustic- > emission work by Ren et al., I believe. > > >... I believe that Ren questions whether energy is 'fed into' > >the travelling wave ... particularly in his later paper these > points become more clear [3]. > > The fact that in a healthy cochlea energy is fed, by OHC's > in the basal half of the active-peak x_b-region, into the TW, > is proven, in my opinion, e.g. by the mentioned papers > of Kolston (2000) and de Boer and Nuttall (1999). > > Reinhart Frosch. > > Reinhart Frosch, > Dr. phil. nat., > r. PSI and ETH Zurich, > Sommerhaldenstr. 5B, > CH-5200 Brugg. > Phone: 0041 56 441 77 72. > Mobile: 0041 79 754 30 32. > E-mail: reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx . -- ,dPYb,,dPYb, I8 IP'`YbIP'`Yb I8 http://www.flatmaxstudios.com/ I8 8II8 8I 88888888 http://www.flatmax.org I8 8'I8 8' I8 I8 dP I8 dP ,gggg,gg I8 ,ggg,,ggg,,ggg, ,gggg,gg ,gg, ,gg I8dP I8dP dP" "Y8I I8 ,8" "8P" "8P" "8, dP" "Y8I d8""8b,dP" I8P I8P i8' ,8I ,I8, I8 8I 8I 8I i8' ,8I dP ,88" ,d8b,_,d8b,_,d8, ,d8b,d88b,dP 8I 8I Yb,d8, ,d8b,dP ,dP"Y8, PI8"888P'"Y8P"Y8888P"`Y8P""Y8P' 8I 8I `YP"Y8888P"`Y8" dP" "Y8 I8 `8, I8 `8, I8 8I Public Projects : I8 8I http://sourceforge.net/search/?type_of_search=soft&words=mffm I8, ,8' http://www.psysound.org "Y8P'