Subject: Re: cross-modality-size-loud From: Jan Schnupp <jan@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:33:57 +0100 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>------=_Part_9316_21962487.1190025237848 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Bob, I concede that Elephants are indeed louder than mice (at least potentially) and I just about still manage to shout down my unruly children who weigh less than half of what I weigh, but that just goes to show that larger organisms typically can generate larger forces than smaller ones if they have to. What I'm really trying to say is that Peter will have to be precise about what he means by 'large'. If it's 'more forceful, more energetic', then larger is indeed louder, but if it is to be a measure of the mass of a resonator or volume of a resonant cavity, then larger means deeper fundamental frequency, not necessarily louder. And I think that mice and elephants are again a good example, as the voice of an elephant is several hundred times lower than that of a mouse. Cheers, Jan On 17/09/2007, Bob Carlyon <bob.carlyon@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Hmm.., I think this depends on whether you are talking about the source > or the filter; if a large person hits a bell then it generally makes more > sound than if a small person does. When it comes to organisms, size and > loudness co-vary: elephants are louder than mice, and adults are louder than > their young. There are of course exceptions, as anyone who has ever taken > children to a restaurant will testify... > > bob > > > Jan Schnupp wrote: > > Dear Peter, > > if you hit a large bell and a small bell, how loud they are does not > depend on size, but on how hard you hit them. The larger the object the > deeper the sound, because resonant frequency is proportional to mass. So if > there is a link with size, then it should be pitch more than loudness. > > Jan > > On 17/09/2007, pieter jan stallen <pj.stallen@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > Dear List, > > > > Does anyone know of experimental psychological data reported which > > refutes (or not) the hypothesis: the perception of object O as "has * > > much* of quality X" predisposes to the perception also of "has *much* of > > quality Y"? E.g., is there empirical evidence for cross-modal bonds like > > "large objects (much of size) are loud objects (much of sound)" ? > > > > Although I see brain research approaching the subject (e.g. http://www.dhushara.com/pdf/synesthesia.pdf > > ) I have not (yet) found so much empirical psychology about such > > metaphors. I may not have studied carefully enough the synaestesia > > literature, but appreciate any more specific 'forwardings' then. > > > > Pieter Jan Stallen / Chair Community Noise Annoyance / University of > > Leiden / Netherlands > > > > > > -- > Dr Jan Schnupp > University of Oxford > Dept. of Physiology, Anatomy and Genetics > Sherrington Building - Parks Road > Oxford OX1 3PT - UK > +44-1865-272513 > www.oxfordhearing.com > > > > -- > Dr. Bob Carlyon > MRC Cognition & Brain Sciences Unit > 15 Chaucer Rd. > Cambridge CB2 7EF > England > > Phone: +44 1223 355294 ext 651 > Fax: +44 1223 359062 > www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk > > -- Dr Jan Schnupp University of Oxford Dept. of Physiology, Anatomy and Genetics Sherrington Building - Parks Road Oxford OX1 3PT - UK +44-1865-272513 www.oxfordhearing.com ------=_Part_9316_21962487.1190025237848 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Bob,<br><br>I concede that Elephants are indeed louder than mice (at least potentially) and I just about still manage to shout down my unruly children who weigh less than half of what I weigh, but that just goes to show that larger organisms typically can generate larger forces than smaller ones if they have to. What I'm really trying to say is that Peter will have to be precise about what he means by 'large'. If it's 'more forceful, more energetic', then larger is indeed louder, but if it is to be a measure of the mass of a resonator or volume of a resonant cavity, then larger means deeper fundamental frequency, not necessarily louder. And I think that mice and elephants are again a good example, as the voice of an elephant is several hundred times lower than that of a mouse. <br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Jan <br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 17/09/2007, <b class="gmail_sendername">Bob Carlyon</b> <<a href="mailto:bob.carlyon@xxxxxxxx">bob.carlyon@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:</span> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Hmm.., I think this depends on whether you are talking about the source or the filter; if a large person hits a bell then it generally makes more sound than if a small person does. When it comes to organisms, size and loudness co-vary: elephants are louder than mice, and adults are louder than their young. There are of course exceptions, as anyone who has ever taken children to a restaurant will testify...<br> <br> bob<div><span class="e" id="q_11512f224dce1a7e_1"><br> <br> <br> Jan Schnupp wrote: <blockquote cite="http://mid9c1a4ffb0709170156o20d3e7b4r731fff3dc3601214@xxxxxxxx" type="cite">Dear Peter,<br> <br> if you hit a large bell and a small bell, how loud they are does not depend on size, but on how hard you hit them. The larger the object the deeper the sound, because resonant frequency is proportional to mass. So if there is a link with size, then it should be pitch more than loudness. <br> <br> Jan<br> <br> <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 17/09/2007, <b class="gmail_sendername">pieter jan stallen</b> <<a href="mailto:pj.stallen@xxxxxxxx" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">pj.stallen@xxxxxxxx </a>> wrote:</span> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div bgcolor="#ffffff"> <div> <p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Dear List,</span></p> <p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Does anyone know of<span> </span>experimental psychological data reported which refutes (or not) the<span> </span>hypothesis: the perception of object O as "has <i>much</i> of quality X" predisposes to the perception also of "has <i>much</i> of quality Y"? E.g., is there empirical evidence for cross-modal bonds like "large objects (much of size) are loud objects (much of sound)" ? </span></p> <p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Although I see brain research approaching the subject (e.g. <span> </span><a href="http://www.dhushara.com/pdf/synesthesia.pdf" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><span><font color="#800080">http://www.dhushara.com/pdf/synesthesia.pdf </font></span></a>) I have not (yet) found so much empirical psychology about such metaphors. I may not have studied carefully enough the synaestesia literature, but appreciate any more specific 'forwardings' then.</span></p> <p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Pieter Jan Stallen</span><span lang="EN-US"> / Chair Community Noise Annoyance / University of Leiden / Netherlands</span></p> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> <br> <br clear="all"> <br> -- <br> Dr Jan Schnupp<br> University of Oxford<br> Dept. of Physiology, Anatomy and Genetics<br> Sherrington Building - Parks Road<br> Oxford OX1 3PT - UK<br> +44-1865-272513<br> <a href="http://www.oxfordhearing.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">www.oxfordhearing.com</a> </blockquote> <br> <br> </span></div><pre cols="72">-- <br>Dr. Bob Carlyon<br>MRC Cognition & Brain Sciences Unit<br>15 Chaucer Rd.<br>Cambridge CB2 7EF<br>England<br><br>Phone: +44 1223 355294 ext 651<br>Fax: +44 1223 359062<br><a href="http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk</a></pre> </div> </blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Dr Jan Schnupp<br>University of Oxford<br>Dept. of Physiology, Anatomy and Genetics<br>Sherrington Building - Parks Road<br>Oxford OX1 3PT - UK<br>+44-1865-272513<br><a href="http://www.oxfordhearing.com"> www.oxfordhearing.com</a> ------=_Part_9316_21962487.1190025237848--