Subject: modeling relative pitch From: Diana Deutsch <ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 12:45:12 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Apple-Mail-1-606515323 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear Martin and others, Your example of 'C4+50 cents followed by E4 + 50 cents' is dealt with =20= in my 1969 model of interval and chord equivalence (linked below), =20 which is not tied to any particular tuning. As I wrote in the caption =20= to Figure 5 of this article 'Although the neurons in the primary =20 array are identified for purposes of clarity in musical notation it =20 is obviously assumed that intervening neurons also exist and are =20 linked up in the same way. These are represented by C and F in the =20 diagram'. So any computational model based on my proposed =20 architecture should link up these intervening neurons also, so as to =20= produce the impression of intervals and chords which can be treated =20 as identical under transposition. Diana On Sep 9, 2007, at 10:36 AM, Martin Braun wrote: > Dear Diana and others, > > Thank you. Yes, we have computational models of relative pitch =20 > (RP), but not > yet physiological ones. > > I must say I am still quite impressed by your computational model =20 > of octave > circularity and chroma from 1969. The physiological model that has =20 > emerged > during the past five years is almost congruent with your early =20 > suggestion. > > As to interval equivalence, the basis of RP, I cannot see the =20 > possibility of > a similar "happy end". You see, RP listeners can spontaneously =20 > recognize a > major third, even if it appears in previously unheard sound =20 > frequencies, > such as in C4 + 50 Cent followed by E4 + 50 Cent. Models of "learning" > neural networks that are based on frequency maps cannot account for =20= > this > ability. > > As to Gerald Langner's recent suggestions of a possible "pitch =20 > helix" in the > ventral nucleus of the lateral lemniscus, we first have to wait for a > publication of data. Further, even if confirmed, such a structure =20 > could - in > my view - not contribute to the extraction of interval categories. > > It is also worth noting that Zhang and Kelly (2006) did not even find > periodotopic order in this nucleus in the rat. > > References: > > Langner G, Simonis C, Braun S, and Ochse M. Evidence for a pitch =20 > helix in > the ventral nucleus of the lateral lemniscus in the gerbil. Assoc Res > Otolaryngol Abstr 26: 173, 2003. > > Langner G, Braun S, Simonis C, Benso C, and Cant N. New evidence =20 > for a pitch > helix in the ventral nucleus of the lateral lemniscus in the =20 > gerbil. Asoc > Res Otolaryngol Abstr 29: 259-260, 2006. > > Zhang H., Kelly J.B. (2006) Responses of neurons in the rat's ventral > nucleus of the lateral lemniscus to amplitude-modulated tones. J > Neurophysiol. 96, 2905-2914. > > > Martin > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Martin Braun > Neuroscience of Music > S-671 95 Kl=E4ssbol > Sweden > web site: http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Deutsch" <ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx> > To: <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: Absolute pitch discussion > > Dear Martin et al, > > Concerning your statement: > >> we do not even have the faintest trace of a hypothesis how a brain >> could accomplish RP. > > please see > > Deutsch, D. Music recognition. Psychological Review , 1969, 76, > 300-309. [PDF Document] > > for a proposed neural network that would accomplish recognition of > musical intervals and chords under transposition and inversion, > together with a discussion of the relevant neurophysiological > evidence that existed at that time. > > See also my chapter 'The processing of pitch combinations' in > Deutsch, D. (Ed.) The Psychology of Music. 2nd Edition. San Diego: > Academic Press, 1999 which revisits this model with updated > references, together with the chapter 'Neural nets, temporal > composites, and tonality' by Jamshed Bharucha in the same volume. > > Further at the neurophysiological level, please also see the work of > the Gerald Langner on the ventral nucleus of the lateral lemniscus. > > Diana > > ---------------------------------------------- > Professor Diana Deutsch > Department of Psychology > University of California, San Diego > 9500 Gilman Dr. #0109 > La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA > > 858-453-1558 (tel) > 858-453-4763 (fax) > > http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch > --Apple-Mail-1-606515323 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 <HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; = -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>Dear Martin and = others,</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span">Your example of 'C4+50 cents followed by E4 + = 50 cents' is dealt with in my 1969 model of interval and chord = equivalence (linked below), which is not tied to any particular tuning. = As I wrote in the caption to Figure 5 of this article 'Although the = neurons in the primary array are identified for purposes of clarity in = musical notation it is obviously assumed that intervening neurons also = exist and are linked up in the same way. These are represented by = <I>C</I> and <I>F</I> in the diagram'.=A0 So any computational model = based on my proposed architecture=A0 should link up these intervening = neurons also, so as to produce the impression of intervals and chords = which can be treated as identical under = transposition.=A0</SPAN></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Diana</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>On Sep 9, 2007, at 10:36 = AM, Martin Braun wrote:</DIV><BR = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Dear Diana and others,</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Thank you. = Yes, we have computational models of relative pitch (RP), but = not</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">yet physiological = ones.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">I must say I am still quite impressed by your = computational model of octave</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">circularity = and chroma from 1969. The physiological model that has emerged</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">during the past five years is almost congruent with = your early suggestion.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; = "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">As to interval equivalence, the = basis of RP, I cannot see the possibility of</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">a similar "happy end". You see, RP listeners can = spontaneously recognize a</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">major third, = even if it appears in previously unheard sound frequencies,</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">such as in C4 + 50 Cent followed by E4 + 50 Cent. = Models of "learning"</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">neural networks that are = based on frequency maps cannot account for this</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">ability.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">As to Gerald Langner's recent = suggestions of a possible "pitch helix" in the</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">ventral nucleus of the lateral lemniscus, we first = have to wait for a</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">publication of data. = Further, even if confirmed, such a structure could - in</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">my view - not contribute to the extraction of = interval categories.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; = "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">It is also worth noting that = Zhang and Kelly (2006) did not even find</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">periodotopic order in this nucleus in the rat.</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">References:</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Langner G, Simonis C, Braun S, and Ochse M. Evidence = for a pitch helix in</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the ventral nucleus of the = lateral lemniscus in the gerbil. Assoc Res</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">Otolaryngol Abstr 26: 173, 2003.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Langner G, Braun S, Simonis C, = Benso C, and Cant N. New evidence for a pitch</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">helix in the ventral nucleus of the lateral = lemniscus in the gerbil. Asoc</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Res = Otolaryngol Abstr 29: 259-260, 2006.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Zhang H., Kelly J.B. (2006) = Responses of neurons in the rat's ventral</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">nucleus = of the lateral lemniscus to amplitude-modulated tones. J</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Neurophysiol. 96, 2905-2914.</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">Martin</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; = ">---------------------------------------------------------------------</D= IV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Martin Braun</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Neuroscience = of Music</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">S-671 95 Kl=E4ssbol</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Sweden</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">web site: <A = href=3D"http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/index.htm">http://w1.570.telia.= com/~u57011259/index.htm</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">----- = Original Message ----- From: "Diana Deutsch" <<A = href=3D"mailto:ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx">ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx</A>></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">To: <<A = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</A>><= /DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 7:58 = PM</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: Absolute pitch = discussion</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Dear Martin et al,</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Concerning = your statement:</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> = <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">we do not even have the = faintest trace of a hypothesis how a brain</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">could = accomplish RP.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">please see</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Deutsch, = D. Music recognition.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 = </SPAN>Psychological Review , 1969, 76,</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">300-309. = [PDF Document]</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">for a proposed neural network that would accomplish = recognition of</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">musical intervals and chords = under transposition and inversion,</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">together with = a discussion of the relevant neurophysiological</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">evidence that existed at that time.</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">See also = my chapter 'The processing of pitch combinations' in</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Deutsch, D. (Ed.) The Psychology of Music. 2nd = Edition. San Diego:</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Academic Press, 1999 which = revisits this model with updated</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">references, = together with the chapter 'Neural nets, temporal</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">composites, and tonality' by Jamshed Bharucha in the = same volume.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Further at the neurophysiological level, please<SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>also see the work = of</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the Gerald Langner on the ventral nucleus of = the lateral lemniscus.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; = "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Diana</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">----------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Professor Diana Deutsch</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top:= 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">Department of Psychology</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">University of = California, San Diego</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">9500 Gilman Dr. = #0109</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, = USA</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">858-453-1558 (tel)</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">858-453-4763 (fax)</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; = "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch">http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeuts= ch</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> = </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>= --Apple-Mail-1-606515323--