Subject: Re: sensory consonance /dissonance' musical consonance / dissonance From: Susan Allen <susie@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:39:56 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Apple-Mail-1-960882860 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed I'm not sure these 'conclusions' can be definitively analyzed by =20 empirical studies...students who have taken Latin may not use Latin, =20 but surely obliquely they could use their knowledge of the language =20 in etymology and other associative manners. Results of lessons =20 cannot be measured in any black and white fashion. Susan Allen PhD Associate Dean Instructor of Harp & Improvisation School of Music California Institute of the Arts Valencia, CA 91355 USA http://music.calarts.edu/~susie On Aug 19, 2007, at 3:14 PM, Martin Braun wrote: > Scott Spiegelberg wrote: > >> One observable >> fact is that both Webern and Schoenberg are still taught today (both >> their compositions and their theories and aesthetics) in music >> schools around the world, thus their impact on music making is >> decidedly not close to zero. > > Sorry, this conclusion does not follow from the observation at all. =20= > In some European countries grammar school students must take =20 > lessons in Latin for many years. Yet the application of this =20 > language by students in real life is evidently close to zero. =20 > Further, in some countries students were forced, due to political =20 > reasons, to take lessons in languages that were extremely =20 > unpopular. The results of these lessons were also often approaching =20= > zero. > > >> Another observable fact is how many >> composers state being influenced positively or negatively by the >> Second Viennese School or by serialism in general (the number of >> living composers who claim this is easily in the thousands). > > Where is this listing? > Have these composers ever been counted? > Has there ever been an empirical survey on this issue at all? > > Martin > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Martin Braun > Neuroscience of Music > S-671 95 Kl=E4ssbol > Sweden > web site: http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/index.htm --Apple-Mail-1-960882860 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 <HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; = -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">I'm not sure these 'conclusions' = can be definitively analyzed by empirical studies...students who have = taken Latin may not use Latin, but surely obliquely they could use their = knowledge of the language in etymology and other associative manners.=A0 = Results of lessons cannot be measured in any black and white = fashion.<DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR><DIV> = <SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>Susan Allen = PhD</DIV><DIV>Associate Dean</DIV><DIV>Instructor of Harp & = Improvisation</DIV><DIV>School of Music</DIV><DIV>California Institute = of the Arts</DIV><DIV>Valencia, CA 91355 USA</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><A = href=3D"http://music.calarts.edu/~susie">http://music.calarts.edu/~susie</= A></DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Aug = 19, 2007, at 3:14 PM, Martin Braun wrote:</DIV><BR = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Scott Spiegelberg wrote:</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE = type=3D"cite"><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">One observable</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">fact is that both Webern and Schoenberg are still = taught today (both</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">their compositions and = their theories and aesthetics) in music</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">schools = around the world, thus their impact on music making is</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">decidedly not close to zero.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Sorry, = this conclusion does not follow from the observation at all. In some = European countries grammar school students must take lessons in Latin = for many years. Yet the application of this language by students in real = life is evidently close to zero. Further, in some countries students = were forced, due to political reasons, to take lessons in languages that = were extremely unpopular. The results of these lessons were also often = approaching zero.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE = type=3D"cite"><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Another observable fact is how = many</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">composers state being influenced = positively or negatively by the</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Second = Viennese School or by serialism in general (the number of</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">living composers who claim this is easily in the = thousands).</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Where is this listing?</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Have these composers ever been counted?</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Has there ever been an empirical survey on this = issue at all?</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Martin</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">---------------------------------------------------------------------</D= IV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Martin Braun</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Neuroscience = of Music</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">S-671 95 Kl=E4ssbol</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Sweden</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">web site: <A = href=3D"http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/index.htm">http://w1.570.telia.= com/~u57011259/index.htm</A><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</SPAN></DIV> = </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>= --Apple-Mail-1-960882860--