Subject: Re: Musical vs everyday listening From: Christopher Frauenberger <frauenberger@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:48:56 +0000 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Apple-Mail-31--902708051 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Two publications that might of interest in this context: Interesting discussion about what dimensions support objecthood in different modalities: @xxxxxxxx{kub01, Author = {M. Kubovy and D. van Valkenburg}, Journal = {Cognition}, Month = {June}, Number = {1-2}, Pages = {97--126}, Title = {Auditory and Visual Objects}, Volume = {80}, Year = {2001}} A bigger experiment about what we hear in our everyday life @xxxxxxxx{bal93, Author = {J. A. Ballas}, Journal = {Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Perception ans Performance}, Number = {2}, Pages = {250--267}, Title = {Common Factors in the Identification of an Assortment of Brief Everyday Sounds}, Volume = {19}, Year = {1993}} Chris On 11 Jan 2007, at 13:19, Kevin Austin wrote: > Peter > > I read here that you (tangentally) support the idea that this is > not about 'object', but about perceptual / cognitive process. In > your first paragraph you say nothing about the sounds, but the > changes in the listener. The 'metrics' of the situation had not > changed, but the ability to process / understand information had. > > In my experience, the object of the study of sound is an > understanding of how the mind works, expressed through, or > conceived in sound. [hypothesis] The students have until then > thought of sound as 'existing' outside themselves, as being > identifiable 'object' -- independent of perception. In the training > of the (inner / mind's) ear, a major break can occur when the > listener stops believing that it's "out there". > > Physical systems provide the stream of data -- it will be the mind > that will segment and organize it. Theories of hearing are like > theories of music ... for me, I haven't read a description / > definition of what hearing or music is. But that's not to negate > them in any way. The Romans didn't have a symbol for the > 'number' (sic) zero, but they built a mighty civilization. > > (Guided) experience and education (with a gollop of genetic > aptitude) seems to be the way "into" the sound. There are > multitudinous examples of sonic incompetence (Janet Cardiff's Forty > Voice Motet springs to mind), cases where the 'idea' is > interesting, but is given the wrong parameters. > > I "get inside" the 'music of / by the environment' the same way I > get inside the Bartok Fourth Quartet or the Grosse Fuge, partly > with the aid of the acoustic event, but more through a 'cross- > modal' structuring of the information. For me, it is not possible > to help people develop this structuring process without teaching > 'perception as process'. > > The students returned and talked of hearing "busses". The next time > out, the instruction should include this task: > > Stay out until you have heard six busses pass by. Each will have a > different sound, from smooth to rough, whiney to grumbling, noisy > to resonant. As you hear each bus, mentally create an image of the > sound within these categories. When the bus has gone, remember the > sound, and reduce it into the category, and give a numerical (or > color) value to it. Store the 'reduced' set in your mind. > > The object of the exercise has been to focus on the differences > between the sounds -- the intervalic distance. Non-absolute pitch > musicians hear relationships and need to build webs / maps of the > relational information. In my experience, the individuals who > develop finer and finer grids for the differentiation and > classifying different sounds possess this "golden ear". > > Is everyone capable of developing the "golden ear" ... ? Hmmm ... > But I have seen that traditional methods of doing this are > "incomplete". > > > Best wishes for the new year. > > > Kevin > > > >> 1. Musical vs everyday listening (2) >> >> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:46:22 +0000 >> From: Peter Lennox <P.Lennox@xxxxxxxx> >> Subject: Re: Musical vs everyday listening >> >> I've experimented with sending audio engineering students on >> soundwalks. Most come back reporting that they never realised ust >> how much they ignore. They also realise within about 30 minutes >> how incomplete are the theories of hearing that they have so far >> encountered. > > >> I've been nibbling away (for 20 years!) at the concept of >> "music-as-environment", using ambisonics, WFS, etc. The idea of a >> piece >> of spatial music that one can be inside, and can navigate and >> explore, >> fascinates me - it seems somewhat distinct from the notion of >> music in >> an environment, although the boundary is naturally blurred, i think. > > >> One thing that has come up from this discussion is that it seems >> likely that once some perception of musicality has been evoked, it >> would take a good deal to suppress it. have to think more about that. >> regards >> ppl >> >> Dr. Peter Lennox >> S.P.A.R.G. >> Signal Processing Applications Research Group >> University of Derby >> http://sparg.derby.ac.uk >> Int. tel: 1775 >> --Apple-Mail-31--902708051 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGsDCCAz8w ggKooAMCAQICAQ0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgdExCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0 ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgGA1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcx KDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMgRGl2aXNpb24xJDAiBgNVBAMTG1RoYXd0 ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYccGVyc29uYWwtZnJlZW1haWxA dGhhd3RlLmNvbTAeFw0wMzA3MTcwMDAwMDBaFw0xMzA3MTYyMzU5NTlaMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpB MSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUg UGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQTCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEA xKY8VXNV+065yplaHmjAdQRwnd/p/6Me7L3N9VvyGna9fww6YfK/Uc4B1OVQCjDXAmNaLIkVcI7d yfArhVqqP3FWy688Cwfn8R+RNiQqE88r1fOCdz0Dviv+uxg+B79AgAJk16emu59l0cUqVIUPSAR/ p7bRPGEEQB5kGXJgt/sCAwEAAaOBlDCBkTASBgNVHRMBAf8ECDAGAQH/AgEAMEMGA1UdHwQ8MDow OKA2oDSGMmh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudGhhd3RlLmNvbS9UaGF3dGVQZXJzb25hbEZyZWVtYWlsQ0EuY3Js MAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjApBgNVHREEIjAgpB4wHDEaMBgGA1UEAxMRUHJpdmF0ZUxhYmVsMi0xMzgw DQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEASIzRUIPqCy7MDaNmrGcPf6+svsIXoUOWlJ1/TCG4+DYfqi2fNi/A 9BxQIJNwPP2t4WFiw9k6GX6EsZkbAMUaC4J0niVQlGLH2ydxVyWN3amcOY6MIE9lX5Xa9/eH1sYI Tq726jTlEBpbNU1341YheILcIRk13iSx0x1G/11fZU8wggNpMIIC0qADAgECAhB53L/nv1dacNFv dPRtMl8MMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29u c3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNz dWluZyBDQTAeFw0wNjExMjcxMjQzNTNaFw0wNzExMjcxMjQzNTNaMIGYMR8wHQYDVQQDExZUaGF3 dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMSUwIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhZjLmZyYXVlbmJlcmdlckBnbXgubmV0 MSowKAYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhtmcmF1ZW5iZXJnZXJAZGNzLnFtdWwuYWMudWsxIjAgBgkqhkiG9w0B CQEWE2ZyYXVlbmJlcmdlckBpZW0uYXQwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQC/ LaOleRko+Px+foTmh4iQMqIAmRYLyzDtCttXxEJPPxMZCxXH5atrj3om5iziUcqggQTsTFlcNu+L SdBbRLLIJ+fDtCnJ1qU9xi22Ztwtl1Cq2KlzFMHHnpB1Ou4KHZXm/vkN7KmE5RVEY5KcWOJokcVI Jjbb0TaqNvoqtX7YiSxUF7SKqRgSMfF/fjziu27QDQ2dYebWquYBbUz5FumT+hxqvs+OX2iKdG1K CFUXTLvFkG+RiRKKYt1lATZHFsloT7J8G85vIHaV9YgyTSuRkcarD555LfBSeonBwkZN8WvWRvy9 4S5cyyjBIkPZQqFujBxcgHXP/Xi3Ny0E63FDAgMBAAGjZTBjMFMGA1UdEQRMMEqBFmMuZnJhdWVu YmVyZ2VyQGdteC5uZXSBG2ZyYXVlbmJlcmdlckBkY3MucW11bC5hYy51a4ETZnJhdWVuYmVyZ2Vy QGllbS5hdDAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAMNIiHpoQ05meXztlJloJiQw 5anPJrLanHShuk1BjBj+3d0VyRd+EAFN6YddPJakdK7LGBjkllIDXAFEzEiyWlezh37jgpu6ZlJc sbwykYtAAja4TIDjGLMXB9CTGknZ978oCUX/fuvJExvZt5rqWto4If8cZB8p5PoWgNobXGCNMYID EDCCAwwCAQEwdjBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0 eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEHnc v+e/V1pw0W909G0yXwwwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAW8wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAc BgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDcwMTExMTU0ODU2WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUer8yAt+T7MNKW7Go 9accu1mD0Y8wgYUGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDF4MHYwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0 ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFp bCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhB53L/nv1dacNFvdPRtMl8MMIGHBgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzF4oHYwYjELMAkG A1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMT I1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhB53L/nv1dacNFvdPRtMl8MMA0G CSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBACqGw6Sh8poa6ovT5vZxSR4r518GTKPE9hcez6nl+CVDAc2EvZDpvNAC F2jLw1obfeHvU/urxJn61TN/KYXK+U+iagX3noj5OYL9H0+MGn8ugTCSgDOUJm2JW+9CBTT+n19n t6ORDNLRiPON2ZnfVFa1SIKdM0J9DbzGEtoDFRb3eZXssgWL1HMdDb/zE8+Q5U08ZpzzUky0J7I4 QbMk+oysUI0fv13pq6BbCQJiwN7YAjZBfSFPJlJIRHER1NbCz7drWW3ihde57Lyw54LTRv+eGLis SKMpDtgTDOLfswLBuuEQfnatdtFCHmJ9pdfvwvv01NPewPkLrQor4ghOlFsAAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail-31--902708051--