Subject: Re: Pitch learning From: Susan Allen <susie@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:32:10 -0800 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>Two books come to mind on this: "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and why you should care)" by Ross W. Duffin, 2006: Norton "Temperament: How Music Became a Battleground for the Great Minds of Western Civilization" by Stuart Isacoff, 2003: Vintage Susan On Mar 1, 2007, at 4:38 PM, Edward Large wrote: > Hi Susan and Linda, > > I agree that there is a large degree of variability > in performance intonation. (By saying variability, > I don't mean random > variation ... for masters it is of course expressive). > But huge variations are > also present for Western music played on non-fixed > tuning instruments, such as violin, or in > vocal performance. Every study of which I am aware > confirms this basic point. This, as it sounds like you > would agree, makes the very measurement of > mean frequency suspect. However, it doesn't > mean there is no tuning system. > > Is there more variability in Indian or Chinese music? > I don't know. I have never seen a comparative study. > > And, by the way, these are empirical issues, not political > ones. > > Ed > > On Mar 1, 2007, at 5:00 PM, Susan Allen wrote: > >> Thank you, Linda, for this clarification. >> >> Susan Allen >> >> On Mar 1, 2007, at 5:53 AM, Linda Seltzer wrote: >> >>> The descriptions of non-Western tuning systems given below are >>> incorrect. >>> Concerning Indian music: I studied North Indian classical singing >>> with >>> Ustad Vilayat Khan. He sometimes demonstrated different versions >>> of each >>> note to me. It is really a slur and maligning of the vast >>> creativity of >>> improvisation in Asian musical culture to say that Asian music >>> has systems >>> and fixed intervals. It is part of the fa;se stereotype of >>> Asians as >>> memorizing and not being creative. Each raga is different. Each >>> performance of a raga is different. The performances of the same >>> raga in >>> different gharanas are different. A master can elaborate different >>> subtle intonations of the pitch and color of a note among >>> different ragas, >>> within a raga, or within a performance. That is part of the >>> subtlety of a >>> master. When real master is performing you never know what >>> brilliant >>> musical idea he or she is going to follow. The intervals of a >>> fifth and a >>> fourth exist, but I have even heard Vilayat Khan demonstrate >>> singing Sa >>> (the base note) slightly off pitch as an expressive device. >>> Improvisation >>> in Indian music is not a mindless outpouring of whatever junk >>> comes into >>> the mind. It is an instantaneous, well-thought-out, imaginative >>> development of a musical idea. >>> >>> As for Chinese music, how can be there "a system" when there are 400 >>> different kinds of Chinese opera alone? The tuning of the >>> strings of the >>> ch'in and the zheng by master performers can be analyzed, but >>> then they >>> will go all over the place in expressive intonations and pitch >>> curves in a >>> performance. But if you want to know about Chinese music, Bell >>> Yung at >>> Pittsburgh is the expert, not me. I had an introduction to >>> Chinese music >>> in the Chinese literature classes of Prof. Yu-Kung Kao at >>> Princeton and I >>> took some lessons on the zheng. I couldn't take the regimented >>> Shanghai >>> conservatory method of teaching the zheng that I was being >>> subjected to. >>> >>> The best assumption in really professional Asian music is that >>> any pitch >>> or intonation is available as an expressive device by a master >>> performer. >>> You can study the relationships among pitches in one performance >>> but that >>> is about all. >>> >>>> >>>> The three largest non-Western tuning systems are Indian, Chinese >>>> and >>>> Arab-Persian. >>>> Each of these has inclusive 12-tone scales whose frequency >>>> relationships are >>>> similar to the Western chromatic scales. Two of these systems, the >>>> Indian and the >>>> Arab-Persian, use more than 12 intervals per octave (Burns, 1999). >>>> The musical >>>> systems of India are theoretically based on 22 intervals per >>>> octave. >>>> However, the >>>> basic scale consists of 12 tones tuned according to a form of just >>>> intonation. >>>> The remaining 10 tones are slight variations of certain intervals, >>>> the exact frequencies >>>> of which depend upon the individual melodic framework (raga) being >>>> played. The >>>> Arab-Persian system theoretically employs intervals that bisect the >>>> distance between >>>> Western chromatic intervals. However, there is some controversy >>>> as to >>>> the exact number >>>> of possible intervals and the actual intervals produced in >>>> performance. Most sources >>>> list the small integer ratio tuning relationships. >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> On Feb 28, 2007, at 1:41 AM, Susan Allen wrote: >>>> >>>>> It is astonishing to me that all of you are talking about western >>>>> scales and octaves! This is not the music of the world! This is >>>>> colonial music, discovered in the West.... >>>>> The WORLD of music does not follow Pythagorean intervals! There >>>>> are many more notes! >>>>> >>>>> FORGET perfect pitch - it only has to do with relative pitch on >>>>> the >>>>> piano keyboard - within the Western (colonial) paradigm! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Susan Allen PhD >>>>> >>>>> http://music.calarts.edu/~susie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:03 PM, Annabel Cohen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Martin and Stewart and others: >>>>>> >>>>>> I am willing to concede that sensitivity to overlapping >>>>>> harmonics may >>>>>> not be the basis of the musical and octave sensitivity of >>>>>> monkeys; >>>>>> what remains unclear to me is whether there is an "octave >>>>>> circular >>>>>> pitch processor" or rather than a "small-integer / periodicity- >>>>>> sensitive processor". >>>>>> >>>>>> If there is only an "octave circular pitch processing" to >>>>>> account for >>>>>> octave generalization, one would predict performance in >>>>>> monkeys on >>>>>> transpositions to the perfect fifth (ratio 3/2 = 7 semitones >>>>>> up) to >>>>>> be as poor as performance on transposition to the tritone (half >>>>>> octave = 6 semitones). A study including the perfect fifth >>>>>> transposition has not been carried out to the best of my >>>>>> knowledge. >>>>>> If performance were superior for the perfect fifth, the "octave >>>>>> processor" theory would be incomplete. >>>>>> >>>>>> How also does one explain the monkey's superior performance on >>>>>> tonal >>>>>> as opposed to atonal melodies, when tonal melodies are >>>>>> characterized >>>>>> by tones related by small integer ratios (though typically not >>>>>> octaves) as compared to tone relations in atonal melodies. >>>>>> >>>>>> Annabel >>>>>> >>>>>> On 24 Feb 2007 at 0:43, Martin Braun wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Annabel, Stew, and others, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Annabel Cohen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The evidence in this paper [ >>>>>>> http://web.telia.com/~u57011259/Wright.htm ] for octave >>>>>>> generalization for tonal melodies by rhesus monkeys is >>>>>>> impressive, >>>>>>> however, whether this reflects something special about >>>>>>> sensitivity >>>>>>> to the octave (chroma) rather than sensitivity to the overtone >>>>>>> series or periodicity is still not clear from this study." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry, it IS clear from this study. The authors reported that >>>>>>> generalization over the distance of two octaves is even stronger >>>>>>> than that over the distance of one octave. This finding >>>>>>> definitely >>>>>>> rules out the possibility that the monkeys generalized >>>>>>> according to >>>>>>> similarities in the sound spectrum (harmonics). The only >>>>>>> remaining >>>>>>> possibility is that the monkeys, the same as humans, have an >>>>>>> octave >>>>>>> circular pitch processing, which provides the basis for a chroma >>>>>>> percept. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>> - Martin Braun Neuroscience of Music S-671 95 Klässbol Sweden >>>>>>> web >>>>>>> site: http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/index.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------- End of forwarded message -------Annabel J. Cohen, Ph. D. >>>>>> Department of Psychology >>>>>> University of Prince Edward Island >>>>>> Charlottetown, P.E.I. C1A 4P3 CANADA >>>>>> e:mail acohen@xxxxxxxx >>>>>> phone: (902) 628-4325 office; (902) 628-4331 lab >>>>>> fax: (902) 628-4359 >>>>>> www.upei.ca/~musicog >>>>>> www.upei.ca/~cmtc >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> Susan Allen, Ph.D. >> Associate Dean for Academic Affairs >> Instructor of Harp & Improvisation >> School of Music >> California Institute of the Arts >> Valencia, CA 91355 USA >> 661-222-2780 >> >> http://music.calarts.edu/~susie > >