Subject: Re: Pitch learning From: Susan Allen <susie@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:00:49 -0800 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>Thank you, Linda, for this clarification. Susan Allen On Mar 1, 2007, at 5:53 AM, Linda Seltzer wrote: > The descriptions of non-Western tuning systems given below are > incorrect. > Concerning Indian music: I studied North Indian classical singing with > Ustad Vilayat Khan. He sometimes demonstrated different versions of > each > note to me. It is really a slur and maligning of the vast creativity > of > improvisation in Asian musical culture to say that Asian music has > systems > and fixed intervals. It is part of the fa;se stereotype of Asians as > memorizing and not being creative. Each raga is different. Each > performance of a raga is different. The performances of the same raga > in > different gharanas are different. A master can elaborate different > subtle intonations of the pitch and color of a note among different > ragas, > within a raga, or within a performance. That is part of the subtlety > of a > master. When real master is performing you never know what brilliant > musical idea he or she is going to follow. The intervals of a fifth > and a > fourth exist, but I have even heard Vilayat Khan demonstrate singing Sa > (the base note) slightly off pitch as an expressive device. > Improvisation > in Indian music is not a mindless outpouring of whatever junk comes > into > the mind. It is an instantaneous, well-thought-out, imaginative > development of a musical idea. > > As for Chinese music, how can be there "a system" when there are 400 > different kinds of Chinese opera alone? The tuning of the strings of > the > ch'in and the zheng by master performers can be analyzed, but then they > will go all over the place in expressive intonations and pitch curves > in a > performance. But if you want to know about Chinese music, Bell Yung at > Pittsburgh is the expert, not me. I had an introduction to Chinese > music > in the Chinese literature classes of Prof. Yu-Kung Kao at Princeton > and I > took some lessons on the zheng. I couldn't take the regimented > Shanghai > conservatory method of teaching the zheng that I was being subjected > to. > > The best assumption in really professional Asian music is that any > pitch > or intonation is available as an expressive device by a master > performer. > You can study the relationships among pitches in one performance but > that > is about all. > >> >> The three largest non-Western tuning systems are Indian, Chinese and >> Arab-Persian. >> Each of these has inclusive 12-tone scales whose frequency >> relationships are >> similar to the Western chromatic scales. Two of these systems, the >> Indian and the >> Arab-Persian, use more than 12 intervals per octave (Burns, 1999). >> The musical >> systems of India are theoretically based on 22 intervals per octave. >> However, the >> basic scale consists of 12 tones tuned according to a form of just >> intonation. >> The remaining 10 tones are slight variations of certain intervals, >> the exact frequencies >> of which depend upon the individual melodic framework (raga) being >> played. The >> Arab-Persian system theoretically employs intervals that bisect the >> distance between >> Western chromatic intervals. However, there is some controversy as to >> the exact number >> of possible intervals and the actual intervals produced in >> performance. Most sources >> list the small integer ratio tuning relationships. >> >> Ed >> >> On Feb 28, 2007, at 1:41 AM, Susan Allen wrote: >> >>> It is astonishing to me that all of you are talking about western >>> scales and octaves! This is not the music of the world! This is >>> colonial music, discovered in the West.... >>> The WORLD of music does not follow Pythagorean intervals! There >>> are many more notes! >>> >>> FORGET perfect pitch - it only has to do with relative pitch on the >>> piano keyboard - within the Western (colonial) paradigm! >>> >>> >>> Susan Allen PhD >>> >>> http://music.calarts.edu/~susie >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:03 PM, Annabel Cohen wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Martin and Stewart and others: >>>> >>>> I am willing to concede that sensitivity to overlapping harmonics >>>> may >>>> not be the basis of the musical and octave sensitivity of monkeys; >>>> what remains unclear to me is whether there is an "octave circular >>>> pitch processor" or rather than a "small-integer / periodicity- >>>> sensitive processor". >>>> >>>> If there is only an "octave circular pitch processing" to account >>>> for >>>> octave generalization, one would predict performance in monkeys on >>>> transpositions to the perfect fifth (ratio 3/2 = 7 semitones up) >>>> to >>>> be as poor as performance on transposition to the tritone (half >>>> octave = 6 semitones). A study including the perfect fifth >>>> transposition has not been carried out to the best of my knowledge. >>>> If performance were superior for the perfect fifth, the "octave >>>> processor" theory would be incomplete. >>>> >>>> How also does one explain the monkey's superior performance on tonal >>>> as opposed to atonal melodies, when tonal melodies are characterized >>>> by tones related by small integer ratios (though typically not >>>> octaves) as compared to tone relations in atonal melodies. >>>> >>>> Annabel >>>> >>>> On 24 Feb 2007 at 0:43, Martin Braun wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Annabel, Stew, and others, >>>>> >>>>> Annabel Cohen wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "The evidence in this paper [ >>>>> http://web.telia.com/~u57011259/Wright.htm ] for octave >>>>> generalization for tonal melodies by rhesus monkeys is impressive, >>>>> however, whether this reflects something special about sensitivity >>>>> to the octave (chroma) rather than sensitivity to the overtone >>>>> series or periodicity is still not clear from this study." >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, it IS clear from this study. The authors reported that >>>>> generalization over the distance of two octaves is even stronger >>>>> than that over the distance of one octave. This finding definitely >>>>> rules out the possibility that the monkeys generalized according to >>>>> similarities in the sound spectrum (harmonics). The only remaining >>>>> possibility is that the monkeys, the same as humans, have an octave >>>>> circular pitch processing, which provides the basis for a chroma >>>>> percept. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> - >>>>> - Martin Braun Neuroscience of Music S-671 95 Klässbol Sweden web >>>>> site: http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/index.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> ------- End of forwarded message -------Annabel J. Cohen, Ph. D. >>>> Department of Psychology >>>> University of Prince Edward Island >>>> Charlottetown, P.E.I. C1A 4P3 CANADA >>>> e:mail acohen@xxxxxxxx >>>> phone: (902) 628-4325 office; (902) 628-4331 lab >>>> fax: (902) 628-4359 >>>> www.upei.ca/~musicog >>>> www.upei.ca/~cmtc >> >> > Susan Allen, Ph.D. Associate Dean for Academic Affairs Instructor of Harp & Improvisation School of Music California Institute of the Arts Valencia, CA 91355 USA 661-222-2780 http://music.calarts.edu/~susie