Subject: re - sometimes behave so strangely From: Diana Deutsch <ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:20:05 -0800 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Apple-Mail-1--816155500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear Branka, Your representation of my notated phrase is misleading. In my posted =20 example at http://philomel.com/phantom_words/description.html#sometimes the caption to the notation states: 'The repeated phrase, as it appears to be sung'. In my posting of December 14 (copied below) I wrote: ' in the subject=92s rendition, the contour of each syllable spans a =20 smaller range in terms of f0 than it does in the original =96 =20 considerably smaller for some syllables. The contours of the =20 syllables in the original are not flat =96 some of them, such as for =20 =91some=92 and =91so=92 span a large range =96 but they become flat = when =20 listeners who hear the effect as music repeat what they hear. The fact that the contours in my original are not flat has led to =20 some small disagreement as to what the =91notes=92 actually are. = Although =20 the large majority hear the phrase as I notate it, some people argue =20 that the first syllable =91some=92 should be notated a semitone lower, =20= and others argue that the last syllable =91ly=92 should be notated a =20 semitone lower (see for example, Linda Seltzer=92s posting). There is =20= in fact no =91correct=92 answer, because the pattern of f0s is = consistent =20 with a number of interpretations. (This is true even taking =20 amplitudes into account.) It may well be that most of us =91opt=92 for =20= the phrase as I notate it because it enables an interpretation in =20 terms of a well-formed tonal melody.' In my talk at the ASA/ASJ meeting, I displayed the pitch contours of =20 the original - spoken - phrase and those of a subject repeating the =20 phrase after multiple repetitions. This illustration showed that in =20 the subject's rendition, each syllable spanned a small pitch range - =20= appropriate to a musical note; however in the original - spoken - =20 phrase the pitch ranges of the syllables were larger - in a couple of =20= cases substantially so. (see also my commentary in http://philomel.com/phantom_words/booklet/ ) Your 'No wonder' statement is opaque - - - . Diana Deutsch --------------------------------- Professor Diana Deutsch Department of Psychology University of California, San Diego 9500 Gilman Dr. #0109 La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA 858-453-1558 (tel) 858-453-4763 (fax) http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch http://www.philomel.com Bruno wrote: > The more a speech utterance resembles music on these > dimensions (stepwise pitch changes, fairly regular rhythm), the more > likely it will be perceived "as music" when it is repeated. > Jeff wrote: > JasonMoran, a well known jazz pianist in the NYC area. He recorded a > Turkish woman speaking on the phone with her mother, and then put it > to song in a jazz trio (piano, bass, drums) context. > Jeff's posting raises a long debated question whether song =20 originally arouse from speech. It may well be that by applying stepwise pitch changes, and fairly =20 regular rhythm, one goes from speech to a talking song and eventually =20= a clearly perceived song. Now, when yue analyse the sentence "sometims behave so strangely" =20 you get the the following: 1) None of her vowels was said on a mono-tone that could be =20 represented by a single note (unlike the notation offered at http://=20 philomel.com/phantom_words/description.html#sometimes). 2) Four out of 7 vowels are diphthongs - (easy to lengthen and =20 "sing" without distorting the vowel's identity) 3) The tone sequences of vowels are: Word Tone "sometimes": rising monophthong + falling diphthong "behave": falling monphthong + rising diphthong "so": rising diphthong "strangely": a fall-rise on diphthong followed by a rise and + a =20 falling monophthong No wonder that we perceive it as "song" especially when repeated =20 sufficiently. The site below offers an interesting voice anaylsis software that =20 turns any pitch contour into a "melody" played by a musical instrument http://www.winpitch.com/ Best to all Branka ________________________________________ Branka Zei Pollermann PhD Psychologue Psychiatrie de Liaison H=F4pitaux Universitaires de Gen=E8ve 51 Bvd. De la Cluse, 1205 Gen=E8ve t=E9l. : 0041 22 382 48 81 Portable : 0041 79 203 92 17 --Apple-Mail-1--816155500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 <HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; = -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Dear = Branka,</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Your = representation of my notated phrase is misleading. In my posted example = at=A0</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://philomel.com/phantom_words/description.html#sometimes">http= ://philomel.com/phantom_words/description.html#sometimes</A></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">the caption to the notation states:</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">'The repeated phrase, as it appears to be = sung'.=A0</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">In=A0my = posting of December 14 (copied below) I wrote:</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><P = style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 12.0px 0.0px">'=A0in the subject=92s = rendition, the contour of each syllable spans a smaller range in terms = of f0 than it does in the original =96 considerably smaller for some = syllables. The contours of the syllables in the original are not flat =96 = some of them, such as for =91some=92 and =91so=92 span a=A0 large range = =96 but they become flat when listeners who hear the effect as music = repeat what they hear.</P><P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 12.0px = 0.0px">=A0The fact that the contours in my original are not flat has led = to some small disagreement as to what the =91notes=92 actually are. = Although the large majority hear the phrase as I notate it, some people = argue that the first syllable =91some=92 should be notated a semitone = lower, and others argue that the last syllable =91ly=92 should be = notated a semitone lower (see for example, Linda Seltzer=92s posting). = There is in fact no =91correct=92 answer, because the pattern of f0s is = consistent with a number of interpretations. (This is true even taking = amplitudes into account.) It may well be that most of us =91opt=92 for = the phrase as I notate it because it enables an interpretation in terms = of a well-formed tonal melody.'</P><P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px = 12.0px 0.0px">In my talk at the ASA/ASJ meeting, I displayed the pitch = contours of the original - spoken - phrase and those of a subject = repeating the phrase after multiple repetitions. This illustration=A0 = showed that in the subject's rendition, each syllable spanned a small=A0 = pitch range - appropriate to a musical note; however in the original - = spoken - phrase the pitch ranges of the syllables were larger - in a = couple of cases substantially so.</P><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(see also my = commentary in</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://philomel.com/phantom_words/booklet/">http://philomel.com/ph= antom_words/booklet/</A> )</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Your 'No = wonder' statement is opaque - - - .</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Diana = Deutsch</DIV><P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 12.0px 0.0px"><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></P><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">---------------------------------</DIV><DIV><DIV>Professor Diana = Deutsch</DIV><DIV>Department of Psychology=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0</DIV><DIV>University of California, San = Diego</DIV><DIV>9500 Gilman Dr. #0109=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0</DIV><DIV>= La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>858-453-1558 = (tel)</DIV><DIV>858-453-4763 (fax)</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><A = href=3D"http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch">http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeuts= ch</A></DIV><DIV><A = href=3D"http://www.philomel.com">http://www.philomel.com</A></DIV><DIV><BR= class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Bruno = wrote:</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The more a = speech utterance resembles music on these</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">dimensions (stepwise pitch changes, fairly regular rhythm), the = more</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">likely it will be perceived "as = music" when it is repeated.</DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Jeff = wrote:</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">JasonMoran, a = well known jazz pianist in the NYC area.=A0 He recorded a</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Turkish woman speaking on the phone with her mother, = and then put it</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to song in a jazz trio (piano, = bass, drums) context.</DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">=A0Jeff's = posting raises a long debated question whether song=A0 originally arouse = from speech.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">It may well be that=A0 by applying stepwise pitch = changes, and fairly regular rhythm, one goes from speech to a talking = song and eventually a clearly perceived song.</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Now, = when yue analyse=A0 the sentence "sometims behave so strangely" you get = the=A0 the following:</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; = "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">1) None of=A0 her vowels was = said on a mono-tone that could be represented by a single note (unlike = the notation offered at <A = href=3D"http://philomel.com/phantom_words/description.html#sometimes">http= ://philomel.com/phantom_words/description.html#sometimes</A>).</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">2) Four = out of 7 vowels are=A0 diphthongs - (easy to lengthen and "sing" without = distorting the vowel's identity)</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">3) The tone = sequences of vowels=A0 are:</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">=A0 =A0 =A0 = Word=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Tone</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">"sometimes":=A0 rising monophthong + falling = diphthong</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"behave": falling monphthong + = rising diphthong</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"so": rising diphthong</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">"strangely": a fall-rise on diphthong followed by a = rise and + a=A0 falling monophthong</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">No wonder that we perceive it as = "song" especially when repeated sufficiently.</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The site = below offers=A0 an interesting=A0 voice anaylsis software that turns any = pitch contour into a "melody" played by a musical instrument</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://www.winpitch.com">http://www.winpitch.com</A>/</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Best to = all</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Branka</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">________________________________________</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Branka = Zei Pollermann PhD</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Psychologue</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Psychiatrie de Liaison</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">H=F4pitaux= Universitaires de Gen=E8ve</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">51 Bvd. De la = Cluse, 1205 Gen=E8ve</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">t=E9l. : 0041 22 382 48 = 81</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Portable : 0041 79 203 92 17</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; "><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BR><DIV> <SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; = "></SPAN></SPAN></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>= --Apple-Mail-1--816155500--