Subject: Re: sometimes behave so strangely From: Jeff Bilmes <bilmes@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:16:29 -0800 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020002040209090702050605 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Flemming Vestergaard wrote: > My mother tongue is a notoriously dull language, Danish. And yet I have followed this discussion without feeling I ever got the point. Untill now, perhaps... > Interesting that you mention "mother tongue". Another great example of speech used as music is from Rudresh Mahanthappa's recent album "Mother Tongue" which uses as inspiration for the melodies a number of spoken phrases in various Indian languages (answers to questions in fact). Rudresh is another great modern NY jazz musician. See the following link which includes audio examples and full explanation of the idea: http://pirecordings.com/pi14/ http://pirecordings.com/features/mother_tongue.html Lastly, the Frank Zappa song from the early 1980s I mentioned earlier (where Steve Vai is duplicating Zappa's speech on his guitar) is on the album "The Man from Utopia" and the song is "The Dangerous Kitchen" (you can hear an excerpt on amazon.com). http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0000009T5001006/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_006/002-2183087-3713663 Best, -- Jeff > I never heard Diana's original example, but Jeff's music example sets the stage, I think. > Any difference between speach and song must be an effect of culture in some sense. We have operas, musicals, vaudevilles, etc, etc. I guess we all know that a good speech is some content and a lot of rythm. > If we repeat a spoken message over and over, the semantics will disappear. Go to a mass (any church), few will get any of the words, they hear a hymn or something. I don't think acoustics plays a role here. > Enjoy a concert, be it classical, rock, rap or jazz, you will hear sounds, notes, rythms which may be speach, may be music. Any speach has some kind of melody, definitely a tempo and a rythm. Jeff's link provides a good example of someone taking advantage of this. When "wah-wah" pedals were introduced for guitarists in the late 60s "talking guitars" were everywhere, remember. > Flemming > > ________________________________ > > From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception on behalf of Jeff Bilmes > Sent: Sat 12/16/2006 8:01 PM > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] sometimes behave so strangely > > > > Diana Deutsch wrote: > >> A number of people have pointed out that the timing characteristics >> of the pattern could be important. I agree - the pattern has an >> emphatic rhythm, and the repetition of this rhythm may help to induce >> listening in 'music mode'. Also, in a study in progress we're looking >> at the effect of the durations of the pauses between repetitions, and >> it appears that lengthening these pauses reduces the effect - or at >> least slows down its development- the formal experiment has yet to be >> completed. And it's true that I intentionally configured the pauses in >> the published example so that the entire sequence of repetitions >> should be metrically coherent. >> >> > > It may be of interest to know that just about any speech can be made > into music given the right context, even without any repetition or > "metric coherence" at all. It is, for example, recently becoming > practice in Jazz music to use speech to obtain ideas about melody. In > some cases, the recorded speech is used as the melody itself done in > unison with a non-vocal musical instrument. A great example is Jason > Moran, a well known jazz pianist in the NYC area. He recorded a > Turkish woman speaking on the phone with her mother, and then put it > to song in a jazz trio (piano, bass, drums) context. You hear the > speech, Moran duplicating the melody on acoustic piano along with the > speech, Moran harmonizing with his left hand, and the bass and drum > accompaniment. The resulting song excerpt is here: > > http://www.alkem.org/monsterisland/mp3/jmoran/thebandwagon/ringing_my_phone_excerpt.mp3 > > There are other examples of his where he uses speech in another > language in the same way. Note that Moran and his band have memorized > this speech and use the tape of it live when they perform this piece > (I recently saw him perform it live). > > It should also be noted, Franz Zappa back in the early 1980s hired a > guitarist named "Steve Vai" to transcribe on guitar some of Zappa's > spoken phrases and play them back on guitar along with the speech > recording (Vai is most noted for transcribing Zappa's guitar solos, > but he also transcribed Zappa's speech). I don't recall the album/song > that this is on, but it was in the early 1980s (if I remember, I'll send > it out). > > Best, > > -- Jeff > > --------------020002040209090702050605 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Flemming Vestergaard wrote: <blockquote cite="mid25EFFE57A403D549A9B6C49D3BA4DDD41C15A9@xxxxxxxx" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">My mother tongue is a notoriously dull language, Danish. And yet I have followed this discussion without feeling I ever got the point. Untill now, perhaps... </pre> </blockquote> <br> Interesting that you mention "mother tongue". Another great example of speech used as music<br> is from Rudresh Mahanthappa's recent album "Mother Tongue" which uses as inspiration<br> for the melodies a number of spoken phrases in various Indian languages (answers to<br> questions in fact). Rudresh is another great modern NY jazz musician.<br> See the following link which includes audio examples and full explanation<br> of the idea: <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://pirecordings.com/pi14/">http://pirecordings.com/pi14/</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://pirecordings.com/features/mother_tongue.html">http://pirecordings.com/features/mother_tongue.html</a></pre> <br> Lastly, the Frank Zappa song from the early 1980s I mentioned earlier (where Steve Vai is duplicating<br> Zappa's speech on his guitar) is on the album "The Man from Utopia" and the song is "The Dangerous <br> Kitchen" (you can hear an excerpt on amazon.com).<br> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0000009T5001006/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_006/002-2183087-3713663">http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0000009T5001006/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_006/002-2183087-3713663</a><br> <br> <br> Best,<br> <br> -- Jeff<br> <br> <br> <blockquote cite="mid25EFFE57A403D549A9B6C49D3BA4DDD41C15A9@xxxxxxxx" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">I never heard Diana's original example, but Jeff's music example sets the stage, I think. Any difference between speach and song must be an effect of culture in some sense. We have operas, musicals, vaudevilles, etc, etc. I guess we all know that a good speech is some content and a lot of rythm. If we repeat a spoken message over and over, the semantics will disappear. Go to a mass (any church), few will get any of the words, they hear a hymn or something. I don't think acoustics plays a role here. Enjoy a concert, be it classical, rock, rap or jazz, you will hear sounds, notes, rythms which may be speach, may be music. Any speach has some kind of melody, definitely a tempo and a rythm. Jeff's link provides a good example of someone taking advantage of this. When "wah-wah" pedals were introduced for guitarists in the late 60s "talking guitars" were everywhere, remember. Flemming ________________________________ From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception on behalf of Jeff Bilmes Sent: Sat 12/16/2006 8:01 PM To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] sometimes behave so strangely Diana Deutsch wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> A number of people have pointed out that the timing characteristics of the pattern could be important. I agree - the pattern has an emphatic rhythm, and the repetition of this rhythm may help to induce listening in 'music mode'. Also, in a study in progress we're looking at the effect of the durations of the pauses between repetitions, and it appears that lengthening these pauses reduces the effect - or at least slows down its development- the formal experiment has yet to be completed. And it's true that I intentionally configured the pauses in the published example so that the entire sequence of repetitions should be metrically coherent. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> It may be of interest to know that just about any speech can be made into music given the right context, even without any repetition or "metric coherence" at all. It is, for example, recently becoming practice in Jazz music to use speech to obtain ideas about melody. In some cases, the recorded speech is used as the melody itself done in unison with a non-vocal musical instrument. A great example is Jason Moran, a well known jazz pianist in the NYC area. He recorded a Turkish woman speaking on the phone with her mother, and then put it to song in a jazz trio (piano, bass, drums) context. You hear the speech, Moran duplicating the melody on acoustic piano along with the speech, Moran harmonizing with his left hand, and the bass and drum accompaniment. The resulting song excerpt is here: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.alkem.org/monsterisland/mp3/jmoran/thebandwagon/ringing_my_phone_excerpt.mp3">http://www.alkem.org/monsterisland/mp3/jmoran/thebandwagon/ringing_my_phone_excerpt.mp3</a> There are other examples of his where he uses speech in another language in the same way. Note that Moran and his band have memorized this speech and use the tape of it live when they perform this piece (I recently saw him perform it live). It should also be noted, Franz Zappa back in the early 1980s hired a guitarist named "Steve Vai" to transcribe on guitar some of Zappa's spoken phrases and play them back on guitar along with the speech recording (Vai is most noted for transcribing Zappa's guitar solos, but he also transcribed Zappa's speech). I don't recall the album/song that this is on, but it was in the early 1980s (if I remember, I'll send it out). Best, -- Jeff </pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html> --------------020002040209090702050605--