Subject: Re: sometimes behave so strangely From: Leon van Noorden <leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:55:50 +0100 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>Dear Xavier, i hit on it by chance, but I believe that if you would start with a spoken word and àbstact`it to a tone sequence , you would have more chance to observe it. Leon > > van: Xavier Rodet <Xavier.Rodet@xxxxxxxx> > datum: 2006/12/14 Thu AM 11:25:31 MET > aan: Leon van Noorden <leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx> > onderwerp: Re: sometimes behave so strangely > > This would interest very much our composers . > Do you have an exemple or how to quickly make one ? > > > Leon van Noorden wrote: > > Dear Diane, dear list, > > > > if this is an example of speach heard as music, I have also noticed the opposite effect, namely music heard as speech. > > > > At least, repeated tone sequences of a few different pitches, not to far apart, with the appropriate durations, can evake suddenly the impression of a spoken word repeated over and over again. It can even happen that the word changes into another word. > > > > Leon van Noorden > > > > . > > > > > >> Dear Al (and List), > >> > >> You raise some very interesting points. I don't think that the > >> explanation lies in semantic satiation, because the words (vowels and > >> consonants) are still heard very clearly, even though the phrase > >> appears to be sung. I do agree, though, that the answer lies, at > >> least in part, in the pitch modulations - though exactly what > >> happens isn't clear. At the ASA meeting I presented an illustration > >> showing the pitch tracing of my original rendition, and that of a > >> subject repeating what she heard after multiple repetitions. The > >> contours of all the syllables were flattened in the subject's > >> rendition, and it's my strong impression that people literally begin > >> to hear the contours as flattened. I'd be happy to send this > >> illustration to anyone who is interested. > >> > >> You also raise the point that the transformation of the phrase from > >> speech to song endures - so that when people listen again to the full > >> sentence, I appear to burst into song. This , to my mind, is a > >> particularly puzzling aspect of the effect. People have told me that > >> the effect is still present, unattenuated, even months later - and > >> this was certainly my experience. As you point out, perhaps the most > >> important question raised by this demonstration is why people don't > >> always hear speech as song. After all, the vowel components of words > >> are harmonic complexes - yet the pitch characteristics of speech are > >> usually suppressed in perception. > >> > >> The composer Mussorggsky wrote in a letter to Rimsky-Korsokoff: > >> > >> 'whatever speech I hear, no matter who is speaking ... my brain > >> immediately sets to working out a musical exposition for this > >> speech' . On listening to his music - particularly his song cycles > >> - one can deliberately flip one's perception to a different mode, and > >> hear, very convincingly, the intonation of Russian speech. I've often > >> wondered whether Mussorgsky may have heard all speech as we hear > >> 'sometimes behave so strangely' after repetition. > >> > >> All best, > >> > >> Diana > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> Professor Diana Deutsch > >> Department of Psychology > >> University of California, San Diego > >> 9500 Gilman Dr. #0109 > >> La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA > >> > >> 858-453-1558 (tel) > >> 858-453-4763 (fax) > >> > >> http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch > >> http://www.philomel.com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Dec 12, 2006, at 10:08 PM, Al Bregman wrote: > >> > >>> Dear Diana (and List), > >>> > >>> Yes indeed! The repetitions do seem to comvert spoken speech to > >>> singing. > >>> > >>> I wonder whether your phenomenon isn't related to that of "semantic > >>> satiation", in which a word that is repeated over and over tends to > >>> lose its meaning and to be perceived as a sequence of sounds. The > >>> meaning is not lost in an all-or-nothing fashion, but tends to get > >>> weaker and weaker. (See > >>> .http://www.soc.hawaii.edu/leonj/499s99/yamauchi/semantic.htm) > >>> > >>> In the case of your demonstration there is a strongly modulated F0 > >>> (intonation contour) over the phrase. It may be that when we hear > >>> ordinary speech, which contains pitch modulation (an acoustic > >>> phenomenon that is present in both music and speech), the speech and > >>> musical schemas are both evoked and compete with one another. > >>> However, when the cues for speech are dominant (i.e., continuous and > >>> non-repeating modulation of F0, without pausing on particular > >>> pitches), the musical interpretation is suppressed. But when the > >>> phrase is repeated many times, a satiation and weakening of the speech > >>> interpretation occurs (as in semantic satiation), thereby allowing the > >>> musical interpretation to become more dominant. Of course it doesn't > >>> become completely dominant, or else we wouldn't hear speech at all. > >>> Rather there is an intermediate form of activation in which we hear > >>> both speech and music (i.e., singing). > >>> > >>> In your demonstration, immediately after hearing the phase as melodic, > >>> when we listen to the whole sentence again, we still maintain an > >>> association between the phrase and the melodic interpretation. I > >>> wonder how long this aftereffect lasts. > >>> > >>> Your demonstration raises the fascinating question of why we don't > >>> ALWAYS hear speech as singing. It may be that persons with absolute > >>> pitch come closer to this than the rest of us do, or at least can turn > >>> it on when they want to. A number of years ago, I asked Poppy Crum, a > >>> graduate student of mine who had absolute pitch, whether she could > >>> assign musical note values to my intonation pattern as I said a > >>> phrase. She replied that this was easy, and gave me a sequence of > >>> note names. > >>> > >>> Whatever the explanation of your phenomenon, it is truly interesting, > >>> and raises some challenging questions. I hope you yourself, or some > >>> of our colleagues, will be able to shed light on the phenomenon > >>> through a series of analytical experiments. > >>> > >>> All the best, > >>> > >>> Al > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Albert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor > >>> Psychology Department, McGill University > >>> 1205 Docteur Penfield Avenue > >>> Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1. > >>> Tel: (514) 484-2592, (514) 398-6103 > >>> Fax: (514) 484-2592 > >>> www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 12/12/06, Diana Deutsch <ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > >>>> Dear list, > >>>> > >>>> I've had a number of requests for the sound demonstration I > >>>> presented at > >>>> the recent ASA meeting in Honolulu, in which the spoken phrase > >>>> 'sometimes > >>>> behave so strangely' following several repetitions, appears > >>>> convincingly > >>>> to be sung rather than spoken - though there is no musical > >>>> context and no > >>>> physical transformation of the sound. This demonstration, together > >>>> with > >>>> spoken commentary, is on my CD 'Phantom Words and Other Curiosities' > >>>> (available from Philomel Records - http://www.philomel.com). > >>>> > >>>> The sound demonstration is also posted on the website: > >>>> > >>>> http://philomel.com/phantom_words/description.html#sometimes > >>>> > >>>> and it's described in the booklet accompanying the CD, which is > >>>> posted at: > >>>> > >>>> http://philomel.com/phantom_words/booklet/ > >>>> > >>>> Happy Holidays! > >>>> > >>>> Diana Deutsch > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------ > >>> -- > >>> > >> > > > > > > > -- > Xavier Rodet -- rod@xxxxxxxx -- 33 (0)1 44 78 48 68, Fax: 33 (0)1 44 78 15 40 > Responsable de l'Equipe Analyse/Synthese - Head of the Analysis/Synthesis Team > IRCAM 1 place Stravinsky 75004 Paris FRANCE -- W3 site : http://www.ircam.fr/ > W3 site of Analysis/Synth. Team: http://www.ircam.fr/equipes/analyse-synthese/ > > >