Res: Do phonemes = sounds? (Daniel Silva )


Subject: Res: Do phonemes = sounds?
From:    Daniel Silva  <silvadmr(at)BOL.COM.BR>
Date:    Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:06:27 -0300

--------------Boundary-00=_RU81QL80000000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_RU81LVC0000000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_RU81LVC0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We have in my language (Brazilian Portuguese) an interesting example concerning the question (especially the post by Dr. Port). Generally, our vowel system is described as containing seven vowel phonemes, the contras= t between + ATR and =96ATR mid vowels being functional only in the stressed syllables. =0D However, in spite of the few minimal pairs for the -/+ ATR contrast, we h= ave words (many of them high frequency words) in witch we can employ both the= =96 ATR and the + ATR vowel in the stressed syllable (examples: cr[o]sta/cr[O]sta, p[o]=E7a/p[O]=E7a, [e]xtra/[E]xtra=85). Additionally, = the employment of these vowels shows some predictability in certain cases (bu= t we have always the counterexamples). I=92m less then a novice, but I thin= k patterns like this challenge the notion of =93phoneme=94.=0D =0D =0D -------Mensagem original-------=0D =0D De: Robert Port=0D Data: 06/07/05 15:58:56=0D Para: AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA=0D Assunto: Do phonemes =3D sounds?=0D =0D I can't resist responding to this issue. I have spent my career trying=0D to figure out what words are made of. I have finally come to the=0D conclusion that:=0D =0D BOTH PHONEMES AND PHONES ARE INTUITIVELY PERSUASIVE PRIMARILY=0D BECAUSE OF OUR LIFELONG EXPERIENCE WITH ALPHABETS.=0D =0D Speech sounds are very short (15-20 per second), and the relevant=0D motor gestures are mostly invisible (tongue, glottis, velum, etc). And=0D those of us in the European cultural tradition learn to use letters=0D beginning as young as 2. Letters are a great engineering solution to=0D preserving language in graphic form and our education system assures=0D that we all become proficient at thinking about speech in letter-like=0D terms from an early age. But phones and phonemes inherit many=0D graphic properties from letters:=0D * SERIAL ORDER (no temporal patterns allowed),=0D * NONOVERLAPPING (hence the artificial `coarticulation problem'),= =0D * PERFECTLY CONTRASTIVE FROM ONE ANOTHER (no near contrasts or=0D partial contrasts)=0D * STATIC (diphthongs, glides and affricates present awkward=0D inconsistencies).=0D =0D In the late 19th C, de Courtenay proposed the notion of the `phoneme'=0D which was very quickly adopted by phoneticians and linguists and=0D treated as a great discovery about human language. In fact, all that=0D happened is that scientists began to think seriously about the=0D psychological representation of language (which had been largely=0D ignored earlier) and thought `Maybe we have something in our heads=0D that represents words the way letters do. There must be something=0D analogous to letters to keep words distinct from each other. There=0D must be PHONEMES!' The phoneme was not discovered, it was just=0D postulated by analogy with alphabetical written language.=0D =0D So how ARE words `represented' in the head?: By gestures and gesture=0D components of various sizes - from feature size to syllable size to=0D the size of whole phrases - WHATEVER STATISTICAL REGULARITIES SPEAKERS=0D HAPPEN TO PICK UP as they learn how TO talk. Each language has its=0D own conventional solution to keeping utterances distinct. Of course,=0D languages have a phonological system, something a little like an=0D `inventory' of possible sound contrasts in various positions. This=0D system should be thought of as a social institution that children=0D learn to adapt their speech habits to. But these inventories are very=0D different from a cognitive spelling system. Eg, they always have many=0D uncertainties, places where you cannot tell which phonemes (letters)=0D to employ: what is the V in `beer'? (same as bead or same as bid?),=0D what is the stop in `stow'? Same as tow or same as doe? What is the=0D pstop butter? Same a butt or same as Bud? Or neither? (But the data=0D show two slightly different flaps are used in ladder and latter!) If=0D language were REALLY spelled with a phonological alphabet, then these=0D uncertainties could not happen.=0D =0D I have a couple mspts on my website addressing these=0D issues. Obviously there are a great many empirical implications of=0D this iconoclastic hypothesis: implications about how speech can be=0D recognized (by humans or machine), for how languages are learned, how=0D they change over time, differences between the linguistic intuitions=0D of alphabet-literates vs. nonalphabet-literates, constraints on=0D phonological language games (like pig-latin), etc etc. Basically ALL=0D the data come out just as this hypothesis predicts. I claim, in fact:=0D =0D NO DATA WHATEVER, (aside from the powerful intuitions of lay=0D people and linguists educated in the alphabetic tradition) SUPPORT A=0D SEGMENTAL (that is, C and V) DESCRIPTION OF LANGUAGE!=0D =0D I would like to hear the evidence if anyone wishes to challenge this=0D claim.=0D =0D I have a couple papers on my website presenting these=0D arguments in more detail.=0D http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~port/pubs.html=0D =0D Bob Port=0D =0D ( ( ( O ) ) ) ( ( ( O ) ) ) ( ( ( O ) ) )=0D Lingstcs/Comp Sci/Cogntv Sci=0D ROBERT F. PORT 330 Memorial Hall, Indiana University=0D Bloomington, Indiana 47405=0D 812-855-9217 Fx 812-855-5363=0D http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~port --------------Boundary-00=_RU81LVC0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> <META content=3D"IncrediMail 1.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style=3D"BACKGROUND-POSITION: left 0px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0p= x 10px 10px; COLOR: #00005b; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Aria= l" text=3D#00005b bgColor=3D#eff3f7 background=3Dcid:33AA58F6-CAD1-46A9-B= 334-261C354B10DC scroll=3Dyes SIGCOLOR=3D"0" ORGYPOS=3D"0"> <TABLE id=3DINCREDIMAINTABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D2 width=3D"100= %" border=3D0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD id=3DINCREDITEXTREGION style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px= ; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; CURSOR: auto; PADDING-TOP: 0px" v= Align=3Dtop width=3D"100%"> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US sty= le=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times= New Roman">We have in my language (Brazilian Portuguese) an interesting = example concerning the question (especially the post by Dr. Port). Genera= lly, our vowel system is described as containing seven vowel phonemes, th= e contrast between + ATR and =96ATR mid vowels being functional only in t= he stressed syllables. <?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D "urn:schemas-m= icrosoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US sty= le=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times= New Roman">However, in spite of the few minimal pairs for the -/+ ATR co= ntrast, we have words (many of them high frequency words) in witch we can= employ both the =96 ATR and the + ATR vowel in the stressed syllable (ex= amples: cr[o]sta/cr[O]sta, p[o]=E7a/p[O]=E7a, [e]xtra/[E]xtra=85). Additi= onally, the employment of these vowels shows some predictability in certa= in cases (but we have always the counterexamples). I=92m less then a novi= ce, but I think patterns like this challenge the notion of =93phoneme=94.= <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV id=3DIncrediOriginalMessage><I>-------Mensagem original-------</I></= DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV id=3Dreceivestrings> <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>De:</B></I> <A href=3D"mai= lto:port(at)CS.INDIANA.EDU">Robert Port</A></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>Data:</B></I> 06/07/05 15:= 58:56</DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>Para:</B></I> <A href=3D"m= ailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA">AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA</A></DIV> <DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>Assunto:</B></I> Do phonem= es =3D sounds?</DIV></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>I can't resist responding to this issue. I have spent my career tryi= ng</DIV> <DIV>to figure out what words are made of. I have finally come to the</DI= V> <DIV>conclusion that:</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;BOTH PHONEMES AND PH= ONES ARE INTUITIVELY PERSUASIVE PRIMARILY</DIV> <DIV>BECAUSE OF OUR LIFELONG EXPERIENCE WITH ALPHABETS.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Speech sounds are very short (15-20 per second), and the relevant</D= IV> <DIV>motor gestures are mostly invisible (tongue, glottis, velum, etc). A= nd</DIV> <DIV>those of us in the European cultural tradition learn to use letters<= /DIV> <DIV>beginning as young as 2. Letters are a great engineering solution to= </DIV> <DIV>preserving language in graphic form and our education system assures= </DIV> <DIV>that we all become proficient at thinking about speech in letter-lik= e</DIV> <DIV>terms from an early age. But phones and phonemes inherit many</DIV> <DIV>graphic properties from letters:</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;* SERIAL ORDER (no t= emporal patterns allowed),</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;* NONOVERLAPPING (he= nce the artificial `coarticulation problem'),</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;* PERFECTLY CONTRAST= IVE FROM ONE ANOTHER (no near contrasts or</DIV> <DIV>partial contrasts)</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;* STATIC (diphthongs= , glides and affricates present awkward</DIV> <DIV>inconsistencies).</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>In the late 19th C, de Courtenay proposed the notion of the `phoneme= '</DIV> <DIV>which was very quickly adopted by phoneticians and linguists and</DI= V> <DIV>treated as a great discovery about human language. In fact, all that= </DIV> <DIV>happened is that scientists began to think seriously about the</DIV> <DIV>psychological representation of language (which had been largely</DI= V> <DIV>ignored earlier) and thought `Maybe we have something in our heads</= DIV> <DIV>that represents words the way letters do. There must be something</D= IV> <DIV>analogous to letters to keep words distinct from each other. There</= DIV> <DIV>must be PHONEMES!'&nbsp;&nbsp;The phoneme was not discovered, it was= just</DIV> <DIV>postulated by analogy with alphabetical written language.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>So how ARE words `represented' in the head?: By gestures and gesture= </DIV> <DIV>components of various sizes - from feature size to syllable size to<= /DIV> <DIV>the size of whole phrases - WHATEVER STATISTICAL REGULARITIES SPEAKE= RS</DIV> <DIV>HAPPEN TO PICK UP as they learn how TO talk.&nbsp;&nbsp;Each languag= e has its</DIV> <DIV>own conventional solution to keeping utterances distinct.&nbsp;&nbsp= ;Of course,</DIV> <DIV>languages have a phonological system, something a little like an</DI= V> <DIV>`inventory' of possible sound contrasts in various positions. This</= DIV> <DIV>system should be thought of as a social institution that children</D= IV> <DIV>learn to adapt their speech habits to. But these inventories are ver= y</DIV> <DIV>different from a cognitive spelling system.&nbsp;&nbsp;Eg, they alwa= ys have many</DIV> <DIV>uncertainties, places where you cannot tell which phonemes (letters)= </DIV> <DIV>to employ: what is the V in `beer'? (same as bead or same as bid?),<= /DIV> <DIV>what is the stop in `stow'?&nbsp;&nbsp;Same as tow or same as doe?&n= bsp;&nbsp;What is the</DIV> <DIV>pstop butter?&nbsp;&nbsp;Same a butt or same as Bud? Or neither? (Bu= t the data</DIV> <DIV>show two slightly different flaps are used in ladder and latter!)&nb= sp;&nbsp;If</DIV> <DIV>language were REALLY spelled with a phonological alphabet, then thes= e</DIV> <DIV>uncertainties could not happen.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I have a couple mspt= s on my website addressing these</DIV> <DIV>issues. Obviously there are a great many empirical implications of</= DIV> <DIV>this iconoclastic hypothesis: implications about how speech can be</= DIV> <DIV>recognized (by humans or machine), for how languages are learned, ho= w</DIV> <DIV>they change over time, differences between the linguistic intuitions= </DIV> <DIV>of alphabet-literates vs. nonalphabet-literates, constraints on</DIV= > <DIV>phonological language games (like pig-latin), etc etc. Basically ALL= </DIV> <DIV>the data come out just as this hypothesis predicts.&nbsp;&nbsp;I cla= im, in fact:</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;NO DATA WHATEVER, (a= side from the powerful intuitions of lay</DIV> <DIV>people and linguists educated in the alphabetic tradition) SUPPORT A= </DIV> <DIV>SEGMENTAL (that is, C and V) DESCRIPTION OF LANGUAGE!</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>I would like to hear the evidence if anyone wishes to challenge this= </DIV> <DIV>claim.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I have a couple pape= rs on my website presenting these</DIV> <DIV>arguments in more detail.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp; <A href=3D"http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~port/pubs.html">h= ttp://www.cs.indiana.edu/~port/pubs.html</A></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Bob Port</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;(&nbsp;&nbsp;(&nbsp;&nbsp;(&nbsp;&nbsp;O&nbsp;&nbsp;)&nb= sp;&nbsp;)&nbsp;&nbsp;)&nbsp;&nbsp;(&nbsp;&nbsp;(&nbsp;&nbsp;(&nbsp;&nbsp= ;O&nbsp;&nbsp;)&nbsp;&nbsp;)&nbsp;&nbsp;)&nbsp;&nbsp;(&nbsp;&nbsp;(&nbsp;= &nbsp;(&nbsp;&nbsp;O&nbsp;&nbsp;)&nbsp;&nbsp;)&nbsp;&nbsp;)</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n= bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Lingstcs= /Comp Sci/Cogntv Sci</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp; ROBERT F. PORT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;330 M= emorial Hall, Indiana University</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n= bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Blooming= ton, Indiana 47405</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 812-855-9217&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&= nbsp;Fx 812-855-5363</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A href=3D"http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~port"= >http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~port</A></DIV></TD></TR> <TR> <TD id=3DINCREDIFOOTER width=3D"100%"> <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%"> <TBODY> <TR> <TD width=3D"100%"></TD> <TD id=3DINCREDISOUND vAlign=3Dbottom align=3Dmiddle></TD> <TD id=3DINCREDIANIM vAlign=3Dbottom align=3Dmiddle></TD></TR></TBODY></T= ABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><SPAN id=3DIncrediStamp><SPAN ltr??><A hre= f=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=3D422&amp;lang=3D22"><IMG al= t=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:8170D9BF-0C1A-47C2-9AE8-6E9EF8F9A95D" align=3D= baseline 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http://www.auditory.org/postings/2005/
maintained by:
DAn Ellis <dpwe@ee.columbia.edu>
Electrical Engineering Dept., Columbia University