AW: absolute pitch & animals (Annemarie Seither-Preisler )

Subject: AW: absolute pitch & animals From: Annemarie Seither-Preisler <preisler(at)UNI-MUENSTER.DE> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:43:10 +0200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C42E97.8C60F3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, =20 at least for echolocating bats (Megaderma lyra) the frequency discrimination thresholds for relative and absolute pitch have been tested (Sedlmeier, H. (1992) Tonh=F6henwahrnehmung beim falschen Vampir Megaderma lyra; University of Munich, dept. of Zoology, Germany; Doctoral thesis; unfortunately in German). The animals were trained to an ultrasonic reference frequency (23 kHz) and learned in a 2-AFC-paradigm to categorize pure tones of varying frequencies to be higher or lower than this reference. After the training period, the reference was omitted and the animals classified the comparison tones only based on the memorized reference. Their performance was remarkable:=20 Depending on the animals, the absolute pitch discrimination threshold was between 0.4 and 0.8 percent. This is slightly worse than human successive pitch discrimination thresholds (about 0.2 =96 0.6 percent) = in the best hearing range under relative pitch conditions. The experiment lasted for about half a year and during that period the animals fully retained this high discrimination performance. =20 Could humans with AP achieve such fine discrimination thresholds? =20 Annemarie =20 =20 -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: AUDITORY Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA] Im Auftrag von Robert Zatorre Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. April 2004 16:40 An: AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA Betreff: Re: absolute pitch & animals =20 Dear List I think one has to be very careful when saying that someone or some species "has absolute pitch". This can mean various different things which are not equivalent. There is lots of evidence that certain animals use absolute pitch cues (for example, a generalization gradient to respond to a learned fixed pitch; or that vocalizations have a very stable pitch structure). This is not necessarily functionally equivalent to the human musician's ability to identify, by verbal labelling or otherwise, a large range of pitches. Taken to its absurd extreme, according some of these definitions, my refrigerator at home "has absolute pitch" since it hums loudly every evening at something pretty close to a b-flat! I always liked the idea, described by Ward among many others, that the cognitively interesting aspect of the AP phenomenon was the ability to have a large number (up to 60 or so) of fixed categories along the pitch continuum. This is very different from what usually happens with other perceptual continua, such as loudness, intensity, weight, or hue, where the limit is typically on the order of 7-10 categories (Miller's magic number). In other words, everyone has the ability to make absolute judgments, but they are very broad, whereas true AP people apparently possess very narrow perceptual categories, that they can then learn to attach a label to. I know of no animal evidence showing that any species can be trained to pick out one of, say, 50 distinct responses to each of 50 distinct tone frequencies. This is precisely what the best human AP possessors can do quickly and without much effort. Only such a demonstration would constitute evidence that an animal possessed an analogous cognitive ability as the human AP musicians. Until someone shows this, we should be careful about making generalizations across species. I am NOT saying that studying these phenomena in animals is not useful--quite the contrary I think it's quite important. I am only arguing that the phenomena should not be assumed to be identical, especially when behaviorally they are not the same at all. Robert PS This whole thread started when someone asked a perfectly reasonable and specific question about sex distribution in absolute pitch. Did anyone ever answer that, or is all this free-association that I am also contributing to all we got out of it? Perhaps the list would work better if we all refrained from giving random opinions, and stuck to addressing specific issues. Or am I just being grumpy? PPS For further reading (of my views, anyhow): Zatorre, R.J. (2003) Absolute pitch: a model for understanding the influence of genes and development on neural and cognitive function. Nature Neuroscience, 6, 692-695. At 09:45 29/04/04 +0200, Leon van Noorden wrote: Annemarie, I completely agree with you that verbal labeling of the aboslute pitch categories is only one stage in the perception process. These labels depend on what you have learned when you were young. I see it more as a way to access the outcome of the absolute pitch processor. It would be interesting to know what are the labels the animals attach here. What do they imagine when they hear a certain absolut pitch object? Do they "see" a big or small ape? or a "red" or "green" goldfinch? Leon=20 -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----=20 Van: AUDITORY Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA] <mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA%5Dnamens> namens <mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA%5Dnamens> Annemarie Seither-Preisler=20 Verzonden: 29 apr 04 9:09=20 Aan: AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA=20 Onderwerp: absolute pitch If absolute pitch were a phenomenon exclusively due to learned verbal categories, how would one explain the finding that several investigated animal species have absolute pitch?=20 =20 (a) songbirds=20 Hulse, S. H. & Cynx, J. Relative pitch perception is constrained by absolute pitch in songbirds (Mimus, Molothrus, and Sturnus). J Comp Psychol 99, 176-196 (1985).=20 (b) monkeys and rats=20 D'Amato, M. R. A search for tonal pattern perception in cebus monkeys: Why monkeys can=92t hum a tune. Music Perception 4, 453-480 (1988).=20 (c) echolocating bats=20 Schmidt, S., Preisler, A. & Sedlmeier, H. in Advances in Hear Res (eds. Manley, G. A., Klump, G., K=F6ppl, C., Fastl, H. & Oeckinghaus, H.) 374-382 (World Scientific Publishers, Singapore, 1994).=20 Preisler, A. & Schmidt, S. in 23rd G=F6ttingen Neurobiology Conference (eds. Elsner, N. & Menzel, R.) 309 (Georg Thieme Verlag, Stuttgart, 1995).=20 =20 The findings by Saffran appear to be very revealing in this respect, showing that young infants at the age of 8 months, unlike adults, primarily rely on absolute pitch cues.=20 =20 Saffran, J. R. & Griepentrog, G. J. Absolute pitch in infant auditory learning: evidence for developmental reorganization. Dev Psychol 37, 74-85 (2001).=20 Saffran, J. R. Musical Learning and Language Development. Ann NY Acad Sci 999, 397-401 (2003).=20 =20 In summary, these results suggest that absolute pitch is a primary perceptual mode that is heavily superseded by relative pitch (probably in the course of language acquisition). Early musical training or learning a tonal language like Thai or Japanese may help to prevent this edging out-process, with the consequence that certain subjects retain the ability to perceive absolute pitch throughout life. Verbal categorizations of notes may be helpful in this respect, but it would be misleading to take them for the main underlying cause.=20 =20 Annemarie Seither-Preisler=20 =20 =20 Dr. Annemarie Seither-Preisler=20 =20 Universit=E4tsklinikum M=FCnster=20 Abteilung f=FCr Experimentelle Audiologie=20 Klinik und Poliklinik f=FCr Hals-, Nasen- und Ohrenheilkunde=20 Kardinal von Galen Ring 10=20 D-48149 M=FCnster=20 =20 Tel.: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56817=20 Fax: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56882=20 Email: preisler(at)uni-muenster.de=20 =20 =20 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =20 Robert J. Zatorre, Ph.D. Montreal Neurological Institute 3801 University St. Montreal, QC Canada H3A 2B4 phone: 1-514-398-8903 fax: 1-514-398-1338 web site: www.zlab.mcgill.ca <http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca/>=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C42E97.8C60F3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)"> <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=3DDE link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue> <div class=3DSection1> Dear = List,  </fo= nt> at least for = =A0echolocating bats (Megaderma lyra) the frequency discrimination thresholds for = relative and absolute pitch have been tested (Sedlmeier, = H. (1992) Tonh=F6henwahrnehmung = beim falschen Vampir Megaderma lyra; University of Munich, dept. of Zoology, Germany; Doctoral thesis; unfortunately in = German). The animals were = trained to an ultrasonic reference frequency (23 kHz) and learned in a = 2-AFC-paradigm to categorize pure tones of varying frequencies to be higher or lower = than this reference. After the training period, the reference was omitted and the = animals classified the comparison tones only based on the memorized reference. Their performance was = remarkable: Depending on the = animals, the absolute pitch discrimination = threshold was between 0.4 and 0.8 percent. This is slightly worse than human = successive pitch discrimination thresholds (about 0.2 – 0.6 percent) in the = best hearing range under relative pitch conditions. The experiment lasted for about half a year and = during that period the animals fully retained this high discrimination = performance.  </fo= nt> Could humans = with AP achieve such fine discrimination thresholds?  </fo= nt> Annemarie<= /font>  </fo= nt>  </fo= nt> -----Urspr=FCngliche = Nachricht----- Von: AUDITORY Research in = Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA] Im Auftrag von Robert Zatorre Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. = April 2004 16:40 An: = AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA Betreff: Re: absolute = pitch & animals   Dear List I think one has to be very careful when saying that someone or some = species "has absolute pitch". This can mean various different things = which are not equivalent. There is lots of evidence that certain animals use = absolute pitch cues (for example, a generalization gradient to respond to a = learned fixed pitch; or that vocalizations have a very stable pitch structure). = This is not necessarily functionally equivalent to the human musician's ability = to identify, by verbal labelling or otherwise, a large range of pitches. = Taken to its absurd extreme, according some of these definitions, my refrigerator = at home "has absolute pitch" since it hums loudly every evening = at something pretty close to a b-flat! I always liked the idea, described by Ward among many others, that the cognitively interesting aspect of the AP phenomenon was the ability to = have a large number (up to 60 or so) of fixed categories along the pitch = continuum. This is very different from what usually happens with other perceptual continua, such as loudness, intensity, weight, or hue, where the limit = is typically on the order of 7-10 categories (Miller's magic number). In = other words, everyone has the ability to make absolute judgments, but they are = very broad, whereas true AP people apparently possess very narrow perceptual categories, that they can then learn to attach a label to. I know of no animal evidence showing that any species can be trained to = pick out one of, say, 50 distinct responses to each of 50 distinct tone = frequencies. This is precisely what the best human AP possessors can do quickly and = without much effort. Only such a demonstration would constitute evidence that an = animal possessed an analogous cognitive ability as the human AP musicians. = Until someone shows this, we should be careful about making generalizations = across species. I am NOT saying that studying these phenomena in animals is not useful--quite the contrary I think it's quite important. I am only = arguing that the phenomena should not be assumed to be identical, especially when behaviorally they are not the same at all. Robert PS This whole thread started when someone asked a perfectly reasonable = and specific question about sex distribution in absolute pitch. Did anyone = ever answer that, or is all this free-association that I am also contributing = to all we got out of it? Perhaps the list would work better if we all refrained = from giving random opinions, and stuck to addressing specific issues. Or am I = just being grumpy? PPS For further reading (of my views, anyhow): Zatorre, R.J. (2003) = Absolute pitch: a model for understanding the influence of genes and development = on neural and cognitive function. Nature Neuroscience, 6, 692-695. At 09:45 29/04/04 +0200, Leon van Noorden wrote: Annemarie,= I completely agree with you that verbal labeling of = the aboslute pitch categories is only one stage in the perception process. = These labels depend on what you have learned when you were young. I see it = more as a way to access the outcome of the absolute pitch processor. It would be interesting to know what are the labels the animals attach here. What do = they imagine when they hear a certain absolut pitch object? Do they "see" a big or small ape? or a "red" or "green" goldfinch? Leon -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: AUDITORY = Research in Auditory Perception [<a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA%5Dnamens" eudora=3Dautourl>mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA]</a><a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA%5Dnamens" = eudora=3Dautourl>namens</a> Annemarie Seither-Preisler Verzonden: 29 = apr 04 9:09 Aan: AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA Onderwerp: absolute pitch If absolute pitch were a = phenomenon exclusively due to learned verbal categories, how would one explain the = finding that several investigated animal species have absolute pitch? =   (a) songbirds = Hulse, S. H. & = Cynx, J. Relative pitch perception is constrained by absolute pitch in songbirds = (Mimus, Molothrus, and Sturnus). J Comp Psychol 99, 176-196 (1985). = (b) monkeys and = rats D'Amato, M. R. A = search for tonal pattern perception in cebus monkeys: Why monkeys can’t hum a = tune. Music Perception 4, 453-480 (1988). (c) echolocating = bats Schmidt, S., = Preisler, A. & Sedlmeier, H. in Advances in Hear Res (eds. Manley, G. A., Klump, = G., K=F6ppl, C., Fastl, H. & Oeckinghaus, H.) 374-382 (World Scientific Publishers, Singapore, 1994). Preisler, A. & = Schmidt, S. in 23rd G=F6ttingen Neurobiology Conference (eds. Elsner, N. & = Menzel, R.) 309 (Georg Thieme Verlag, Stuttgart, 1995).   The findings by Saffran = appear to be very revealing in this respect, showing that young infants at the age of = 8 months, unlike adults, primarily rely on absolute pitch = cues.   Saffran, J. R. = & Griepentrog, G. J. Absolute pitch in infant auditory learning: evidence for = developmental reorganization. Dev Psychol 37, 74-85 (2001). Saffran, J. R. = Musical Learning and Language Development. Ann NY Acad Sci 999, 397-401 = (2003).   In summary, these results = suggest that absolute pitch is a primary perceptual mode that is heavily = superseded by relative pitch (probably in the course of language acquisition).  = Early musical training or learning a tonal language like Thai or Japanese may = help to prevent this edging out-process, with the consequence that certain = subjects retain the ability to perceive absolute pitch throughout life. Verbal categorizations of notes may be helpful in this respect, but it would be misleading to take them for the main underlying cause. =   Annemarie = Seither-Preisler     Dr. Annemarie Seither-Preisler =   Universit=E4tsklinikum = M=FCnster Abteilung f=FCr Experimentelle = Audiologie Klinik und = Poliklinik f=FCr Hals-, Nasen- und Ohrenheilkunde Kardinal von Galen Ring 10 D-48149 M=FCnster   Tel.: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56817 = Fax: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56882 = Email: preisler(at)uni-muenster.de   =   <div> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</fon= t> </div>   <div> Robert J. = Zatorre, Ph.D. </div> <div> Montreal = Neurological Institute </div> <div> 3801 = University St. </div> <div> Montreal, QC = Canada H3A 2B4 </div> <div> phone: = 1-514-398-8903 </div> <div> fax: = 1-514-398-1338 </div> <div> web site: <a href=3D"http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca/" = EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>www.zlab.mcgill.ca</a> </div> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C42E97.8C60F3C0--

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