Subject: Re: absolute pitch & animals From: Stewart Hulse <hulse(at)TAMPABAY.RR.COM> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:31:17 -0400This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_015E_01C42DDD.7C9C0AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Robert and List- You might check Takeuchi and Hulse (1993) Psychological Bulletin for a = fairly recent discussion of AP at the behavioral level. Also, Ron = Weisman has shown a remarkable ability of song birds to place pitches = into many categories -- better than humans at the same task. = Fascinating topic! Stewart Hulse ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Robert Zatorre=20 To: AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA=20 Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:40 AM Subject: Re: absolute pitch & animals Dear List I think one has to be very careful when saying that someone or some = species "has absolute pitch". This can mean various different things = which are not equivalent. There is lots of evidence that certain animals = use absolute pitch cues (for example, a generalization gradient to = respond to a learned fixed pitch; or that vocalizations have a very = stable pitch structure). This is not necessarily functionally equivalent = to the human musician's ability to identify, by verbal labelling or = otherwise, a large range of pitches. Taken to its absurd extreme, = according some of these definitions, my refrigerator at home "has = absolute pitch" since it hums loudly every evening at something pretty = close to a b-flat! I always liked the idea, described by Ward among many others, that the = cognitively interesting aspect of the AP phenomenon was the ability to = have a large number (up to 60 or so) of fixed categories along the pitch = continuum. This is very different from what usually happens with other = perceptual continua, such as loudness, intensity, weight, or hue, where = the limit is typically on the order of 7-10 categories (Miller's magic = number). In other words, everyone has the ability to make absolute = judgments, but they are very broad, whereas true AP people apparently = possess very narrow perceptual categories, that they can then learn to = attach a label to. I know of no animal evidence showing that any species can be trained = to pick out one of, say, 50 distinct responses to each of 50 distinct = tone frequencies. This is precisely what the best human AP possessors = can do quickly and without much effort. Only such a demonstration would = constitute evidence that an animal possessed an analogous cognitive = ability as the human AP musicians. Until someone shows this, we should = be careful about making generalizations across species. I am NOT saying = that studying these phenomena in animals is not useful--quite the = contrary I think it's quite important. I am only arguing that the = phenomena should not be assumed to be identical, especially when = behaviorally they are not the same at all. Robert PS This whole thread started when someone asked a perfectly reasonable = and specific question about sex distribution in absolute pitch. Did = anyone ever answer that, or is all this free-association that I am also = contributing to all we got out of it? Perhaps the list would work better = if we all refrained from giving random opinions, and stuck to addressing = specific issues. Or am I just being grumpy? PPS For further reading (of my views, anyhow): Zatorre, R.J. (2003) = Absolute pitch: a model for understanding the influence of genes and = development on neural and cognitive function. Nature Neuroscience, 6, = 692-695. At 09:45 29/04/04 +0200, Leon van Noorden wrote: Annemarie, I completely agree with you that verbal labeling of the aboslute = pitch categories is only one stage in the perception process. These = labels depend on what you have learned when you were young. I see it = more as a way to access the outcome of the absolute pitch processor. It = would be interesting to know what are the labels the animals attach = here. What do they imagine when they hear a certain absolut pitch = object? Do they "see" a big or small ape? or a "red" or "green" goldfinch? Leon=20 -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----=20 Van: AUDITORY Research in Auditory Perception = [mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA]namens Annemarie Seither-Preisler=20 Verzonden: 29 apr 04 9:09=20 Aan: AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA=20 Onderwerp: absolute pitch If absolute pitch were a phenomenon exclusively due to learned = verbal categories, how would one explain the finding that several = investigated animal species have absolute pitch?=20 (a) songbirds=20 Hulse, S. H. & Cynx, J. Relative pitch perception is constrained = by absolute pitch in songbirds (Mimus, Molothrus, and Sturnus). J Comp = Psychol 99, 176-196 (1985).=20 (b) monkeys and rats=20 D'Amato, M. R. A search for tonal pattern perception in cebus = monkeys: Why monkeys can't hum a tune. Music Perception 4, 453-480 = (1988).=20 (c) echolocating bats=20 Schmidt, S., Preisler, A. & Sedlmeier, H. in Advances in Hear Res = (eds. Manley, G. A., Klump, G., K=F6ppl, C., Fastl, H. & Oeckinghaus, = H.) 374-382 (World Scientific Publishers, Singapore, 1994).=20 Preisler, A. & Schmidt, S. in 23rd G=F6ttingen Neurobiology = Conference (eds. Elsner, N. & Menzel, R.) 309 (Georg Thieme Verlag, = Stuttgart, 1995).=20 The findings by Saffran appear to be very revealing in this = respect, showing that young infants at the age of 8 months, unlike = adults, primarily rely on absolute pitch cues.=20 Saffran, J. R. & Griepentrog, G. J. Absolute pitch in infant = auditory learning: evidence for developmental reorganization. Dev = Psychol 37, 74-85 (2001).=20 Saffran, J. R. Musical Learning and Language Development. Ann NY = Acad Sci 999, 397-401 (2003).=20 In summary, these results suggest that absolute pitch is a primary = perceptual mode that is heavily superseded by relative pitch (probably = in the course of language acquisition). Early musical training or = learning a tonal language like Thai or Japanese may help to prevent this = edging out-process, with the consequence that certain subjects retain = the ability to perceive absolute pitch throughout life. Verbal = categorizations of notes may be helpful in this respect, but it would be = misleading to take them for the main underlying cause.=20 Annemarie Seither-Preisler=20 Dr. Annemarie Seither-Preisler=20 Universit=E4tsklinikum M=FCnster=20 Abteilung f=FCr Experimentelle Audiologie=20 Klinik und Poliklinik f=FCr Hals-, Nasen- und Ohrenheilkunde=20 Kardinal von Galen Ring 10=20 D-48149 M=FCnster=20 Tel.: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56817=20 Fax: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56882=20 Email: preisler(at)uni-muenster.de=20 =20 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Robert J. Zatorre, Ph.D. Montreal Neurological Institute 3801 University St. Montreal, QC Canada H3A 2B4 phone: 1-514-398-8903 fax: 1-514-398-1338 web site: www.zlab.mcgill.ca ------=_NextPart_000_015E_01C42DDD.7C9C0AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Robert and List-</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You might check Takeuchi and Hulse = (1993) =20 Psychological Bulletin for a fairly recent discussion of AP at the = behavioral=20 level. Also, Ron Weisman has shown a remarkable ability of song = birds to=20 place pitches into many categories -- better than humans at the same = task. =20 Fascinating topic!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Stewart Hulse</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Drobert.zatorre(at)mcgill.ca=20 href=3D"mailto:robert.zatorre(at)mcgill.ca">Robert Zatorre</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3DAUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA=20 href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA">AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 29, 2004 = 10:40=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: absolute pitch = &=20 animals</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D3>Dear List<BR><BR>I think one has to be = very=20 careful when saying that someone or some species "has absolute pitch". = This=20 can mean various different things which are not equivalent. There is = lots of=20 evidence that certain animals use absolute pitch cues (for example, a=20 generalization gradient to respond to a learned fixed pitch; or that=20 vocalizations have a very stable pitch structure). This is not = necessarily=20 functionally equivalent to the human musician's ability to identify, = by verbal=20 labelling or otherwise, a large range of pitches. Taken to its absurd = extreme,=20 according some of these definitions, my refrigerator at home "has = absolute=20 pitch" since it hums loudly every evening at something pretty close to = a=20 b-flat!<BR><BR>I always liked the idea, described by Ward among many = others,=20 that the cognitively interesting aspect of the AP phenomenon was the = ability=20 to have a large number (up to 60 or so) of fixed categories along the = pitch=20 continuum. This is very different from what usually happens with other = perceptual continua, such as loudness, intensity, weight, or hue, = where the=20 limit is typically on the order of 7-10 categories (Miller's magic = number). In=20 other words, everyone has the ability to make absolute judgments, but = they are=20 very broad, whereas true AP people apparently possess very narrow = perceptual=20 categories, that they can then learn to attach a label to.<BR><BR>I = know of no=20 animal evidence showing that any species can be trained to pick out = one of,=20 say, 50 distinct responses to each of 50 distinct tone frequencies. = This is=20 precisely what the best human AP possessors can do quickly and without = much=20 effort. Only such a demonstration would constitute evidence that an = animal=20 possessed an analogous cognitive ability as the human AP musicians. = Until=20 someone shows this, we should be careful about making generalizations = across=20 species. I am NOT saying that studying these phenomena in animals is = not=20 useful--quite the contrary I think it's quite important. I am only = arguing=20 that the phenomena should not be assumed to be identical, especially = when=20 behaviorally they are not the same at all.<BR><BR>Robert<BR><BR>PS = This whole=20 thread started when someone asked a perfectly reasonable and specific = question=20 about sex distribution in absolute pitch. Did anyone ever answer that, = or is=20 all this free-association that I am also contributing to all we got = out of it?=20 Perhaps the list would work better if we all refrained from giving = random=20 opinions, and stuck to addressing specific issues. Or am I just being=20 grumpy?<BR><BR>PPS For further reading (of my views, anyhow): Zatorre, = R.J.=20 (2003) Absolute pitch: a model for understanding the influence of = genes and=20 development on neural and cognitive function. <I>Nature = Neuroscience</I>, 6,=20 692-695.<BR><BR><BR>At 09:45 29/04/04 +0200, Leon van Noorden=20 wrote:<BR></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"" type=3D"cite"><FONT face=3Darial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Annemarie,</FONT><FONT size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT = face=3Darial=20 color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I completely agree with you that verbal = labeling of the=20 aboslute pitch categories is only one stage in the perception = process. These=20 labels depend on what you have learned when you were young. I see it = more as=20 a way to access the outcome of the absolute pitch processor. It = would be=20 interesting to know what are the labels the animals attach here. = What do=20 they imagine when they hear a certain absolut pitch = object?</FONT><FONT=20 size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Darial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Do = they "see" a big=20 or small ape? or a "red" or "green" goldfinch?</FONT><FONT=20 size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Darial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Leon</FONT><FONT=20 size=3D3></FONT>=20 <DL><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D2> <DD>-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----=20 <DD>Van:</B> AUDITORY Research in Auditory Perception [<A=20 href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA%5Dnamens"=20 eudora=3D"autourl">mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA]</A><A=20 href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA%5Dnamens"=20 eudora=3D"autourl">namens</A></B> Annemarie Seither-Preisler=20 <DD>Verzonden:</B> 29 apr 04 9:09=20 <DD>Aan:</B> AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA=20 <DD>Onderwerp:</B> absolute pitch<BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Darial = size=3D2> <DD>If absolute pitch were a phenomenon exclusively due to learned = verbal=20 categories, how would one explain the finding that several = investigated=20 animal species have absolute pitch? </FONT><FONT size=3D3> <DD><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New, Courier" = size=3D2> <DD>(a) songbirds</FONT><FONT size=3D3></FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2>=20 <DD>Hulse, S. H. & Cynx, J. Relative pitch perception is = constrained=20 by absolute pitch in songbirds (Mimus, Molothrus, and Sturnus). J = Comp=20 Psychol</I> 99</B>, 176-196 (1985).</FONT><FONT = size=3D3></FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2>=20 <DD>(b) monkeys and rats</FONT><FONT size=3D3></FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2>=20 <DD>D'Amato, M. R. A search for tonal pattern perception in cebus = monkeys:=20 Why monkeys can=92t hum a tune. Music Perception</I> 4</B>, = 453-480=20 (1988).</FONT><FONT size=3D3></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New, = Courier"=20 size=3D2>=20 <DD>(c) echolocating bats</FONT><FONT size=3D3></FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2>=20 <DD>Schmidt, S., Preisler, A. & Sedlmeier, H. in Advances in = Hear=20 Res</I> (eds. Manley, G. A., Klump, G., K=F6ppl, C., Fastl, H. = &=20 Oeckinghaus, H.) 374-382 (World Scientific Publishers, Singapore,=20 1994).</FONT><FONT size=3D3></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New, = Courier" size=3D2>=20 <DD>Preisler, A. & Schmidt, S. in 23rd G=F6ttingen = Neurobiology=20 Conference</I> (eds. Elsner, N. & Menzel, R.) 309 (Georg = Thieme=20 Verlag, Stuttgart, 1995).</FONT><FONT size=3D3>=20 <DD><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Darial size=3D2> <DD>The findings by Saffran appear to be very revealing in this = respect,=20 showing that young infants at the age of 8 months, unlike adults,=20 primarily rely on absolute pitch cues.</FONT><FONT size=3D3>=20 <DD><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New, Courier" = size=3D2> <DD>Saffran, J. R. & Griepentrog, G. J. Absolute pitch in = infant=20 auditory learning: evidence for developmental reorganization. Dev=20 Psychol</I> 37</B>, 74-85 (2001).</FONT><FONT = size=3D3></FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2>=20 <DD>Saffran, J. R. Musical Learning and Language Development. Ann = NY Acad=20 Sci</I> 999</B>, 397-401 (2003).</FONT><FONT size=3D3>=20 <DD><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Darial size=3D2> <DD>In summary, these results suggest that absolute pitch is a = primary=20 perceptual mode that is heavily superseded by relative pitch = (probably in=20 the course of language acquisition). Early musical training = or=20 learning a tonal language like Thai or Japanese may help to = prevent this=20 edging out-process, with the consequence that certain subjects = retain the=20 ability to perceive absolute pitch throughout life. Verbal = categorizations=20 of notes may be helpful in this respect, but it would be = misleading to=20 take them for the main underlying cause. </FONT><FONT size=3D3> <DD><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Darial size=3D2> <DD>Annemarie Seither-Preisler</FONT><FONT size=3D3>=20 <DD><BR><BR> <DD><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New, Courier" = size=3D2> <DD>Dr. Annemarie Seither-Preisler</FONT><FONT size=3D3> <BR><BR> <DD><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New, Courier" = size=3D2> <DD>Universit=E4tsklinikum M=FCnster</FONT><FONT size=3D3> = <BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <DD>Abteilung f=FCr Experimentelle Audiologie</FONT><FONT = size=3D3>=20 <BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <DD>Klinik und Poliklinik f=FCr Hals-, Nasen- und Ohrenheilkunde=20 </FONT><FONT size=3D3></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New, Courier" = size=3D2> <DD>Kardinal von Galen Ring 10</FONT><FONT size=3D3> = <BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <DD>D-48149 M=FCnster</FONT><FONT size=3D3> <BR><BR> <DD><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New, Courier" = size=3D2> <DD>Tel.: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56817</FONT><FONT size=3D3> = <BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <DD>Fax: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56882</FONT><FONT size=3D3> = <BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20 face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <DD>Email: preisler(at)uni-muenster.de</FONT><FONT size=3D3>=20 <DD></FONT> </DD></DL></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</DIV><BR> <DIV>Robert J. Zatorre, Ph.D.</DIV> <DIV>Montreal Neurological Institute</DIV> <DIV>3801 University St.</DIV> <DIV>Montreal, QC Canada H3A 2B4</DIV> <DIV>phone: 1-514-398-8903</DIV> <DIV>fax: 1-514-398-1338</DIV> <DIV>web site: <A href=3D"http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca/"=20 = EUDORA=3D"AUTOURL">www.zlab.mcgill.ca</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML= > ------=_NextPart_000_015E_01C42DDD.7C9C0AC0--