Subject: Re: Uncertainty principle debate From: Abeer Alwan <abeera(at)ICSL.UCLA.EDU> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:59:18 -0800Greetings, This paper might be relevent to the uncertainty debate: James J. Hant and Abeer Alwan, "A Psychoacoustic-Masking Model to Predict the Perception of Speech-Like Stimuli in Noise," Speech Communication, Vol. 40, May 2003, pp. 291-313. The paper has data showing noise masked thresholds as a function of duration and introduces a model which can predict these thresholds. Stimuli include tones, glides, noise bursts, and formant transitions. You can download the paper from our website: http:///www.icls.ucla.edu/~spapl (and then click on the Publications section) Regards, Abeer On Fri, 30 Jan 2004, Alain de Cheveigne' wrote: > Nordmark (1968, 1970) made the same point. See also Moore (1973). > > [Moore BCJ (1973) Frequency difference limens for short-duration > tones. J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 54:610-619; Nordmark JO (1968) Mechanisms > of frequency discrimination. J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 44:1533-1540; > Nordmark JO (1970) Time and frequency analysis. In Tobias JV (ed > Foundations of modern auditory theory. New York: Academic Press, > 55-83.] > > Alain > > >Hello List, > > > >The current controversy about the application of the uncertainty > >principl;e is to me at least interesting and somewhat perplexing in that > >it is still, seems to me, misunderstood. > > > >There are two two methods of defining frequency. One of these is the > >inverse of the time difference between two points of equal phase in a > >recurring signal. This definition is NOT limited by the uncertainty > >principle.[Kneser, H.O. Bermerkungen ueber Definition and Messung der > >Frequenz. Arch. Elekt. Uebertr. 1948 2 167-169} > > > >Bekesy in many of his works (based on experimental data) has stated : > >Frequency is already determined in 2 cycles of a sinusoidal signal. At a > >frequency of 500 Hz the estimate that I have is that the aproximate DL = > >1 Hz. Now two cycles of 500 Hz is 4 mS. The product of delta t and > >delta f is 0.004. Very obviously less than 1/2 which (the 1/2) as I > >recall was first derived by Gabor [ Gabor, D. Theory of communication. > >J. Instn. Elect. Engrs. 1946 93(3) 429-457] See also [Licklider J.C.R. > >"Basic correlates of the auditory sto,i;is" in S.S. Stevens (ed) > >Handbook of experimental psychology pp 985-1013 1951 Wiley, New York] > >Licklider (one of my teachers) compares this to Heisenberg's uncertainty > >principle. > > > >Based on this type of data the determination of frequency by at least > >humans and perhaps other vertebrates must be based on time differences. > > > >Fred > >-- > >Fred Herzfeld, MIT'54 > >78 Glynn Marsh Drive #59 > >Brunswick, Ga. 31525-0504 > >USA > > > >Tel: (912) 262-1276 > >Fax: (912) 262-1276 by request > > -- > Alain de Cheveigne' > Ircam - CNRS, > 1 place Igor Stravinsky, 75004, Paris, FRANCE. > email: Alain.de.Cheveigne(at)ircam.fr, phone: +33 1 44 78 48 46 > >