Re: Uncertainty principle debate ("Alain de Cheveigne'" )

Subject: Re: Uncertainty principle debate
From:    "Alain de Cheveigne'"  <Alain.de.Cheveigne(at)IRCAM.FR>
Date:    Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:52:46 +0100

Nordmark (1968, 1970) made the same point. See also Moore (1973).

[Moore BCJ (1973) Frequency difference limens for short-duration
tones. J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 54:610-619; Nordmark JO (1968) Mechanisms
of frequency discrimination. J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 44:1533-1540;
Nordmark JO (1970) Time and frequency analysis. In Tobias JV (ed
Foundations of modern auditory theory. New York: Academic Press,
55-83.]

Alain

>Hello List,
>
>The current controversy about the application of the uncertainty
>principl;e is to me at least interesting and somewhat perplexing in that
>it is still, seems to me, misunderstood.
>
>There are two two methods of defining frequency. One of these is the
>inverse of the time difference between two points of equal phase in a
>recurring signal. This definition is NOT limited by the uncertainty
>principle.[Kneser, H.O. Bermerkungen ueber Definition and Messung der
>Frequenz. Arch. Elekt. Uebertr. 1948 2 167-169}
>
>Bekesy in many of his works (based on experimental data) has stated :
>Frequency is already determined in 2 cycles of a sinusoidal signal. At a
>frequency of 500 Hz the estimate that I have is that the aproximate DL =
>1 Hz.  Now two cycles of 500 Hz is 4 mS. The product of delta t and
>delta f is 0.004. Very obviously less than 1/2 which (the 1/2) as I
>recall was first derived by Gabor [ Gabor, D. Theory of communication.
>J. Instn. Elect. Engrs. 1946 93(3) 429-457] See also [Licklider J.C.R.
>"Basic correlates of the auditory sto,i;is" in S.S. Stevens (ed)
>Handbook of experimental psychology  pp 985-1013 1951 Wiley, New York]
>Licklider (one of my teachers) compares this to Heisenberg's uncertainty
>principle.
>
>Based on this type of data the determination of frequency by at least
>humans and perhaps other vertebrates must be based on time differences.
>
>Fred
>--
>Fred Herzfeld, MIT'54
>78 Glynn Marsh Drive #59
>Brunswick, Ga.  31525-0504
>USA
>
>Tel: (912) 262-1276
>Fax: (912) 262-1276 by request

--
Alain de Cheveigne'
Ircam - CNRS,
1 place Igor Stravinsky, 75004, Paris, FRANCE.
email: Alain.de.Cheveigne(at)ircam.fr, phone: +33 1 44 78 48 46