Subject: Re: Musical Semant[r]ic[k]s From: Martin Braun <nombraun(at)POST.NETLINK.SE> Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:44:14 +0200Thanks, Kevin ! It's good you have got into this list. Martin ----- Original Message ----- From: KEVIN AUSTIN <KAUSTIN(at)VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA> To: <AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 1:31 PM Subject: Musical Semant[r]ic[k]s > >From: Alexandra Hettergott <a.hettergott(at)WANADOO.FR> > >Subject: Re: Let's have a test on chord grammar > > Yo! Alexandra!! > > > >>There are just no clear semantic signals in music, and > >>syntactic signals are missing altogether. > > >'Syntactic signals' in speech exist (only) in relation to an external > >(structural) reference system -- > > Mmmm ... possibly, but maybe the 'syntactic signals' don't exist in > speech, but rather, it might be that the perceptual and interpretive > systems of individuals extracts (what one considers to be) the > 'important' aspects of the signal. Which, IMV, is learned, and is > therefore cultural. It would therefore (from this line of thought) be > that the syntactic signal exosts in relation to an _internal_ > (structural) reference system. <<<8-()>>>>>> !! > > > > you might easily have such thing also in music ... > > IME & IMV, definitely! However, this 'common' language (response) is > unique to every individual. [A new operational definition of 'common'!] > > > > > So the 'inversions' as for a triad, i.e., sixth chord (1st) > >and six-four chord (2nd), might be sort of corresponding to the > >'inflections' of (flexible) words > > This might be so (for many people), however in my (teaching experience), > I continue to note that _many_ people do not hear the first inversion > triad as being 'an inflection' of the root position chord. For those who > don't hear this, the learning curve is _steep_. > > For those not (overly) familiar with 'harmony', a numerical example. > > Which of these two patterns is 'more similar'? > 4 3 > 3 4 > 3 5 > > Hmmmmm ... the first is a major triad in semitones; the second is a > minor triad in semitones; the third is a 'first inversion' major triad in > semitones. Students have to 'learn' that the first and third patterns are > 'more similar' ... no, not the first and second, or the second and third! > > > > likewise as you have 'inversions' and 'retrogrades' > >in dodecaphonic music, plus their 'mirroring', (analogously) > >corresponding to (inflected) word form and / or order in speech > >sentences ; > > .redor emit fo lasrever a si ereht ecnis ,deviecrep eb ylisae nac > edargorter a taht erus ton ma I > > [Retrograde] > > Hrnroziob' R,n mlg xlmermxvw zylfg rmevihrlm. > Similarly, I'm not convinced about inversion. > > [Inversion] > > ??mlrhivemr-vwzitligvi big lg gmzD > Want to try retrograde-inversion?? > > [RI] > > > > or one might also think of the conclusive (terminative) > >character of different (final) cadences in traditional music in this > >context. > > And the 'unstable' tritone of tonal music is a preferred (and understood) > cadential feature in Messiaen. > > > >'Semantics' is due to the reference to some (external) meaning, > > As I wrote .. I think the meaning is 'internal' ... which could be why > some things mean some thing to some people, and not to others. > > And there may be primitives ... and (self-)learned schema ... [Bregman > ASA p 642 ... ASA = Auditory Scene Analysis.] > > > > Best > > Kevin > kaustin(at)vax2.concordia.ca > > > > The tulips are thinking about budding ... and the squirrels are thinking > about the budding tulips. Chili pepper time! > >