Subject: [Fwd: ERBs and resolvability] From: Annemarie Seither-Preisler <preisler(at)UNI-MUENSTER.DE> Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:27:57 +0100Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. --------------F19082C18300DF10CF6E458B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List, here is a summary of comments I have received concerning the question of resolved and unresolved harmonics. Best regards, Annemarie --------------F19082C18300DF10CF6E458B Return-Path: <bcjm(at)cus.cam.ac.uk> Received: from virgo.cus.cam.ac.uk (virgo.cus.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.20]) by batch14.uni-muenster.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7E11072 for <preisler(at)uni-muenster.de>; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:09:41 +0200 (MES) Received: from ding.psychol.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.177.157]) by virgo.cus.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.16 #3) id 13f2jE-0000Sc-00 for preisler(at)UNI-MUENSTER.DE; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:09:40 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000929170223.0134d374(at)pop.cus.cam.ac.uk> X-Sender: bcjm(at)pop.cus.cam.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:02:23 +0100 To: preisler(at)UNI-MUENSTER.DE From: "Brian C.J. Moore" <bcjm(at)cus.cam.ac.uk> Subject: ERBs and resolvability Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Dear Annmarie, I have proposed that partials within (equal-amplitude) complex tones can be resolved when they are separated from neighbouring partials by 1.25 ERBs; see Moore, B. C. J. and Ohgushi, K. (1993) Audibility of partials in inharmonic complex tones. J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 93, 452-461. Moore, B. C. J. (1997) An Introduction to the Psychology of Hearing, 4th Ed., Academic, San Diego. Using this assumption, it is easy to work out, for a given f0, the harmonic that will first be unresolved. You can download from the website given below a simple program that will give you the centre frequency for a given ERB width. Example: Assume f0 = 100 Hz. The harmonics will be at the threshold of resolvability when the ERB is 100/1.25 Hz, i.e. 80 Hz. To use the program type freq2erb -e (return) and enter 80 Hz. The program will give a centre frequency of 513.1 Hz. Thus, the 5th harmonic will just be resolved, but the sixth will not. Best wishes, Brian The center frequency at which the ERB is 80 Hz is Brian C. J. Moore, Ph.D. Professor of Auditory Perception, Department of Experimental Psychology, University of Cambridge, Downing Street, Cambridge CB2 3EB, England Tel. + 44 1223 333574 Fax. + 44 1223 333564 http://hearing.psychol.cam.ac.uk/ --------------F19082C18300DF10CF6E458B Return-Path: <bob.carlyon(at)mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk> Received: from mailhost.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk (sirius.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk [192.153.213.178]) by batch16.uni-muenster.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20C110B4 for <preisler(at)uni-muenster.de>; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:49:45 +0200 (MES) Received: from pc58.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk by mailhost.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk with Sendmail (8.9.3/V3080601); Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:49:45 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000929165211.00916490(at)pophost.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:52:11 +0100 To: Annemarie Seither-Preisler <preisler(at)UNI-MUENSTER.DE> From: Bob Carlyon <bob.carlyon(at)mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Spectral resolvability of harmonics In-Reply-To: <39D4868A.B6E8FAA(at)uni-muenster.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 annemarie, look in shackleton & carlyon (1994), jasa vol 95 p 3529-3540. The limit depends on tehfrequency region into which the complex is filtered. A simple rule is in he number of harmonics in teh 10-dB down bandwidth of an auditory filter centered on the complex <2=resolved 2 to 3.25 ambiguous >3.25 unresolved 10-dB down BW i=44.46(4.37F+1) where F is in kHz bob At 13:09 29/09/00 +0100, you wrote: >Dear List, > >I am looking for an adequate method to determine the frequency limit >separating resolved from unresolved harmonics in a complex tone, when f0 >is given. >I am interested in empirical data, simple algorihms based on ERBs, as >well as in program listings (Fortran, C, Matlab etc.). > > >Thanks in advance! > >Annemarie Seither-Preisler > > Dr. Bob Carlyon MRC Cognition and Brain Sciences Unit 15 Chaucer Rd. Cambridge CB2 2EF England Phone: (44) 1223 355294 ext 720 Fax: (44) 1223 359062 NOTE NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: bob.carlyon(at)mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk --------------F19082C18300DF10CF6E458B Return-Path: <flatmax(at)cse.unsw.edu.au> Received: from note.orchestra.cse.unsw.EDU.AU (note.orchestra.cse.unsw.EDU.AU [129.94.242.29]) by batch11.uni-muenster.de (Postfix) with SMTP id EF45910FB for <preisler(at)UNI-MUENSTER.DE>; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:39:34 +0200 (MES) Received: From faure With LocalMail ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:39:30 +1100 From: flatmax <flatmax(at)cse.unsw.EDU.AU> To: Annemarie Seither-Preisler <preisler(at)UNI-MUENSTER.DE> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:39:30 +1100 (EST) X-Sender: flatmax(at)faure.orchestra.cse.unsw.EDU.AU Cc: AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA Subject: Re: Spectral resolvability of harmonics In-Reply-To: <39D4868A.B6E8FAA(at)uni-muenster.de> Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0009300222400.30136-300000(at)faure.orchestra.cse.unsw.EDU.AU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-433951602-970241970=:30136" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime(at)docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --0-433951602-970241970=:30136 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII OK here's a little start ... I have attatched simple scripts which should work in 'octave' http://www.che.wisc.edu/octave (perhaps Matlab too - don't know though - if you run Matlab please inform your parents) The scripts will find ERBs from Frequencies and vica versa. Once in the ERB domain harmonics are equidistant in range (in theory any way). But I'm sure someone else will want to expand on this point .... There are some papers by Greenwood for example which will tell you that what is reguarded a harmonic is different for different mammals ... Matt On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Annemarie Seither-Preisler wrote: > Dear List, > > I am looking for an adequate method to determine the frequency limit > separating resolved from unresolved harmonics in a complex tone, when f0 > is given. > I am interested in empirical data, simple algorihms based on ERBs, as > well as in program listings (Fortran, C, Matlab etc.). > > > Thanks in advance! > > Annemarie Seither-Preisler > --0-433951602-970241970=:30136 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name="erb2freq.m" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0009300239290.30136(at)faure.orchestra.cse.unsw.EDU.AU> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="erb2freq.m" ZnVuY3Rpb24gZnJlcT1lcmIyZnJlcShlcmIpDQoNCiUjIEVSQjJGUkVRIC0g RmluZHMgdGhlIGZyZXEuIGluIEh6IGZvciBhbiBlcmIuDQoNCiUjIHJlZmVy ZW5jZXMNCiUjWzFdICBgYEEgTW9kZWwgZm9yIHRoZSBQcmVkaWN0aW9uIG9m IFRocmVzaG9sZHMsIExvdWRuZXNzLCBhbmQgUGFydGlhbCANCiUjICAgICAg ICBMb3VkbmVzcycnIE1vb3JlIEIuQy5KLiwgR2xhc2JlcmcgQi5SLiBhbmQg QmFlciBULiwgSm91cm5hbCBvZiB0aGUgDQolIyAgICAgICBBdWRpbyBFbmdp bmVlcmluZyBTb2NpZXR5LCB2b2wuIDQ1LCBuby4gNCwgQXByaWwgMTk5Nywg cHAuMjI0LTQwLg0KDQpjMT0yNC42NzM7DQpjMj00LjM2ODsNCmMzPSgyMzAy LjYvKGMxICogYzIpKTsNCg0KZnJlcT0xMDAwLjAgKiAoMTAuXihlcmIvYzMp IC0gMS4wKSAvIGMyOw0KcmV0dXJuOw0K --0-433951602-970241970=:30136 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name="freq2erb.m" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0009300239300.30136(at)faure.orchestra.cse.unsw.EDU.AU> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="freq2erb.m" ZnVuY3Rpb24gZXJiPWZyZXEyZXJiKGZyZXEpDQolIyBGUkVRMkVSQiAtIEZp bmRzIHRoZSBlcmIgZm9yIGEgZnJlcS4gaW4gSHoNCg0KJSMgcmVmZXJlbmNl cw0KJSNbMV0gIGBgQSBNb2RlbCBmb3IgdGhlIFByZWRpY3Rpb24gb2YgVGhy ZXNob2xkcywgTG91ZG5lc3MsIGFuZCBQYXJ0aWFsIA0KJSMgICAgICAgIExv dWRuZXNzJycgTW9vcmUgQi5DLkouLCBHbGFzYmVyZyBCLlIuIGFuZCBCYWVy IFQuLCBKb3VybmFsIG9mIHRoZSANCiUjICAgICAgIEF1ZGlvIEVuZ2luZWVy aW5nIFNvY2lldHksIHZvbC4gNDUsIG5vLiA0LCBBcHJpbCAxOTk3LCBwcC4y MjQtNDAuDQoNCmMxPTI0LjY3MzsNCmMyPTQuMzY4Ow0KYzM9KDIzMDIuNi8o YzEgKiBjMikpOw0KDQplcmI9KGMzKmxvZzEwKChjMiAqIGZyZXEvMTAwMC4w KSArIDEuMCkpOw0KcmV0dXJuOw0K --0-433951602-970241970=:30136-- --------------F19082C18300DF10CF6E458B Return-Path: <ddg(at)neteze.com> Received: from daedalus.neteze.com (stat200.microweb.net [208.201.233.200]) by batch13.uni-muenster.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E4210C2 for <preisler(at)UNI-MUENSTER.DE>; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:34:09 +0200 (MES) Received: (from ddg(at)localhost) by daedalus.neteze.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00250; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200009291934.MAA00250(at)daedalus.neteze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach_patches v148.2) Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0009300222400.30136-300000(at)faure.orchestra.cse.unsw.EDU.AU> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.2mach_patches (Enhance 2.0b5) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148.2.RR) From: "Donald D. Greenwood" <ddg(at)neteze.com> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:34:00 -0700 To: Annemarie Seither-Preisler <preisler(at)UNI-MUENSTER.DE> Subject: Re: Spectral resolvability of harmonics Cc: flatmax <flatmax(at)CSE.UNSW.EDU.AU> Reply-To: ddg(at)neteze.com References: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0009300222400.30136-300000(at)faure.orchestra.cse.unsw.EDU.AU> X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 <nofill>On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, flatmax wrote:=20 > OK here's a little start ... I have attatched simple scripts which should > work in 'octave' http://www.che.wisc.edu/octave (perhaps Matlab too - > don't know though - if you run Matlab please inform your parents) >=20 > The scripts will find ERBs from Frequencies and vica versa. >=20 > Once in the ERB domain harmonics are equidistant in range (in theory any > way). But I'm sure someone else will want to expand on this point .... >=20 > There are some papers by Greenwood for example which will tell you that > what is reguarded a harmonic is different for different mammals ... Not really. Harmonics are the same in any language (or animal). But see: </nofill> Greenwood, D.D. (1990) A cochlear frequency-position function for several species - 29 years later. J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 87, 2592-2605. Greenwood, D.D. (1991) "Critical bandwidth and consonance in relation to cochlear frequency- position coordinates," Hearing Res. 54, 164-208. Greenwood, D.D. (1996) "Comparing octaves, frequency ranges, and cochlear-map curvature across species, Hearing Reseach, 94, 157-162. The second and third papers in particular contain what Matt has in mind.=20 In the second, there are replots of Mayer, Plomp and Steeneken, and others on consonant dyads and Plomp (Ear as Frequency Analyser - considering harmonic sequences), etc. This seems relevant to what you are driving at. <nofill> Inquire further as needed. Donald Greenwood > On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Annemarie Seither-Preisler wrote: >=20 > > Dear List, > > > > I am looking for an adequate method to determine the frequency limit > > separating resolved from unresolved harmonics in a complex tone, when = f0 > > is given. > > I am interested in empirical data, simple algorihms based on ERBs, as > > well as in program listings (Fortran, C, Matlab etc.). > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Annemarie Seither-Preisler > > >=20 > `` </nofill>= --------------F19082C18300DF10CF6E458B Return-Path: <pdivenyi(at)yahoo.com> Received: from web4202.mail.yahoo.com (web4202.mail.yahoo.com [216.115.104.135]) by batch15.uni-muenster.de (Postfix) with SMTP id DFC02105E for <preisler(at)UNI-MUENSTER.DE>; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 00:52:13 +0200 (MES) Message-ID: <20000930225213.27266.qmail(at)web4202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.197.68.37] by web4202.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:52:13 PDT Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:52:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Pierre Divenyi <pdivenyi(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Spectral resolvability of harmonics To: Annemarie Seither-Preisler <preisler(at)UNI-MUENSTER.DE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Dear Anne-Marie, Would you please share with the rest of us all the helpful comments you have received? Apparently, you got them personally, rather than through the list. Thank you and best regards, Pierre Divenyi ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ --------------F19082C18300DF10CF6E458B--