The percentage depends a lot on which study you look at, but the point
is, you will typically get tinnitus once your cochlea is disconnected.
So OAEs won't be of much use at that point...
Didier
Didier A Depireux depireux@xxxxxxxxx
Inst. for Systems Research http://theearlab.org
School of Engineering Ph: 410-925-6546
U Md College Park MD 20742 USA
Adjunct, BioEngineering
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 3:43 AM, Andrew Bell <andrew.bell@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Matt and list:
Thanks for pointer to Ceranic et al (1998), a paper which gives clear
evidence that spontaneous otoacoustic emissions (SOAEs) and tinnitus are
closely related. If SOAEs sound like tinnitus and behave like tinnitus,
isn't it likely that they are (in some respect) tinnitus?
If we are aiming to pinpoint tinnitus, then SOAEs offer the most direct
tool, and Ceranic et al. support this idea. Their Table 5 shows that
patients with head injury and tinnitus displayed 4.4 SOAEs per ear, compa=
red
to 1.7 with normals and 0.25 with those having head injury without tinnit=
us.
So did the head injury damage the cochlea and generate a tinnitus sensati=
on
(via afferent pathways), or did the injury damage the brain, which respon=
ded
by sending a signal to the cochlea (via efferent pathways)? As you say, t=
hat
question is still very much open, but it would definitely repay some
attention.
Andrew.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Andrew Bell
Research School of Biology (RSB)
The Australian National University
Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia
T: +61 2 6125 5145
F: +61 2 6125 3808
andrew.bell@xxxxxxxxxx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Further, tinnitus can also be induced by head injury [6]. In
this case, it is possible that the inner ear is damaged and
this causes a peripheral type of tinnitus, which again is a
cochlear amplifier dysfunction. Until we can successfully
trace this cause and develop methods such as cellular
regeneration possibly using stem cells - we can tinker and
experiment using all sorts of procedures to quash the
problem, but they will never be as sophisticated as actually
repairing the biology.
[6] @ARTICLE{ceranic:1998,
=A0 author =3D {Ceranic, B.J. and Prasher, D.K. and Raglan, E.
and Luxon, L.M.},
=A0 title =3D {{Tinnitus after head injury: evidence from
otoacoustic emissions}},
=A0 journal =3D {Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery \& Psychiatry},
=A0 year =3D {1998},
=A0 volume =3D {65},
=A0 pages =3D {523--529},
=A0 number =3D {4},
=A0 publisher =3D {BMJ}
}
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:11:40 +0000
From: Brian Gygi <bgygi@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: SOAEs and tinnitus
----=_vm_0011_W352665323_32197_1254935500
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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The problem is that there are also people (e.g., myself) who have tinnitu=
s but exhibit no SOAEs. Further, SOAE's don't really "sound" like tinnitu=
s - there are several different "sounds" of tinnitus, suchas ringing, "cr=
ickets" and very rarely a low frequency hum. I have crickets myself. This=
is the problem, as perviously stated, with grouping all disorders that k=
ind of behave like tinnitus under one heading, when they might have sever=
al different etiologies.
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Bell [mailto:andrew.bell@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2009 12:43 AM
To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Technique can pinpoint tinnitus
Matt and list:Thanks for pointer to Ceranic et al (1998), a paper which g=
ives clearevidence that spontaneous otoacoustic emissions (SOAEs) and tin=
nitus areclosely related. If SOAEs sound like tinnitus and behave like ti=
nnitus,isn't it likely that they are (in some respect) tinnitus?If we are=
aiming to pinpoint tinnitus, then SOAEs offer the most directtool, and C=
eranic et al. support this idea. Their Table 5 shows thatpatients with he=
ad injury and tinnitus displayed 4.4 SOAEs per ear, comparedto 1.7 with n=
ormals and 0.25 with those having head injury without tinnitus.So did the=
head injury damage the cochlea and generate a tinnitus sensation(via aff=
erent pathways), or did the injury damage the brain, which respondedby se=
nding a signal to the cochlea (via efferent pathways)? As you say, thatqu=
estion is still very much open, but it would definitely repay someattenti=
on.Andrew.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Andrew BellResearch Schoo=
l of Biology (RSB)The Australian National UniversityCanberra, ACT 0200, A=
ustraliaT: +61 2 6125 5145F: +61 2 6125 3808andrew.bell@xxxxxxxxxx~~~~~~~=
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> > Further, tinnitus can also be induced =
by head injury [6]. In > this case, it is possible that the inner ear is =
damaged and > this causes a peripheral type of tinnitus, which again is a=
> cochlear amplifier dysfunction. Until we can successfully > trace this=
cause and develop methods such as cellular > regeneration possibly using=
stem cells - we can tinker and > experiment using all sorts of procedure=
s to quash the > problem, but they will never be as sophisticated as actu=
ally > repairing the biology.> > > > [6] @ARTICLE{ceranic:1998,> author =3D=
{Ceranic, B.J. and Prasher, D.K. and Raglan, E. > and Luxon, L.M.},> tit=
le =3D {{Tinnitus after head injury: evidence from > otoacoustic emission=
s}},> journal =3D {Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery \& Psychiatry},> ye=
ar =3D {1998},> volume =3D {65},> pages =3D {523--529},> number =3D {4},>=
publisher =3D {BMJ}> }>
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
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<html><div> <br>The problem is that there are also people (e.g., myself) =
who have tinnitus but exhibit no SOAEs. Further, SOAE's don't reall=
y "sound" like tinnitus - there are several different "sounds" of tinnitu=
s, suchas ringing, "crickets" and very rarely a low frequency hum. =
I have crickets myself. This is the problem, as perviously stated, =
with grouping all disorders that kind of behave like tinnitus under one h=
eading, when they might have several different etiologies.<br><br>Brian <=
br><br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left:=
5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D=
"2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> Andrew Bell [mailto:andrew=
.bell@xxxxxxxxxx]<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 7, 2009 12:43 AM<br>=
<b>To:</b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Technique can =
pinpoint tinnitus<br><br></font>Matt and list:
Thanks for pointer to Ceranic et al (1998), a paper which gives clear
evidence that spontaneous otoacoustic emissions (SOAEs) and tinnitus are
closely related. If SOAEs sound like tinnitus and behave like tinnitus,
isn't it likely that they are (in some respect) tinnitus?
If we are aiming to pinpoint tinnitus, then SOAEs offer the most direct
tool, and Ceranic et al. support this idea. Their Table 5 shows that
patients with head injury and tinnitus displayed 4.4 SOAEs per ear, compa=
red
to 1.7 with normals and 0.25 with those having head injury without tinnit=
us.
So did the head injury damage the cochlea and generate a tinnitus sensati=
on
(via afferent pathways), or did the injury damage the brain, which respon=
ded
by sending a signal to the cochlea (via efferent pathways)? As you say, t=
hat
question is still very much open, but it would definitely repay some
attention.
Andrew.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Andrew Bell
Research School of Biology (RSB)
The Australian National University
Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia
T: +61 2 6125 5145
F: +61 2 6125 3808
andrew.bell@xxxxxxxxxx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Further, tinnitus can also be induced by head injury [6]. In
> this case, it is possible that the inner ear is damaged and
> this causes a peripheral type of tinnitus, which again is a
> cochlear amplifier dysfunction. Until we can successfully
> trace this cause and develop methods such as cellular
> regeneration possibly using stem cells - we can tinker and
> experiment using all sorts of procedures to quash the
> problem, but they will never be as sophisticated as actually
> repairing the biology.
>
>
>
> [6] @ARTICLE{ceranic:1998,
> author =3D {Ceranic, B.J. and Prasher, D.K. and Raglan, E.
> and Luxon, L.M.},
> title =3D {{Tinnitus after head injury: evidence from
> otoacoustic emissions}},
> journal =3D {Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery \& Psychiatry}=
,
> year =3D {1998},
> volume =3D {65},
> pages =3D {523--529},
> number =3D {4},
> publisher =3D {BMJ}
> }
>
</blockquote></html>
----=_vm_0011_W352665323_32197_1254935500--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 22:32:49 +0200
From: Pierre Divenyi <pdivenyi@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: SOAEs and tinnitus
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--B_3337799571_4462796
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charset="ISO-8859-1"
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I stopped doing OAE research in the late 80=B9s, but the accepted statistics
then was that the 2x2 matrix of Tinnitus-y-or-n vs. SOAO-y-or-n had 4 almos=
t
equal cells. Has this statistic changed indicating now a significant
correlation?
-Pierre
On 10/7/09 7:11 PM, "Brian Gygi" <bgygi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
=20
The problem is that there are also people (e.g., myself) who have tinnitu=
s but
exhibit no SOAEs. Further, SOAE's don't really "sound" like tinnitus - t=
here
are several different "sounds" of tinnitus, suchas ringing, "crickets" an=
d
very rarely a low frequency hum. I have crickets myself. This is the
problem, as perviously stated, with grouping all disorders that kind of b=
ehave
like tinnitus under one heading, when they might have several different
etiologies.
=20
Brian=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Bell [mailto:andrew.bell@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2009 12:43 AM
To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Technique can pinpoint tinnitus
=20
Matt and list: Thanks for pointer to Ceranic et al (1998), a paper which
gives clear evidence that spontaneous otoacoustic emissions (SOAEs) and
tinnitus are closely related. If SOAEs sound like tinnitus and behave li=
ke
tinnitus, isn't it likely that they are (in some respect) tinnitus? If w=
e are
aiming to pinpoint tinnitus, then SOAEs offer the most direct tool, and
Ceranic et al. support this idea. Their Table 5 shows that patients with=
head
injury and tinnitus displayed 4.4 SOAEs per ear, compared to 1.7 with no=
rmals
and 0.25 with those having head injury without tinnitus. So did the head
injury damage the cochlea and generate a tinnitus sensation (via afferen=
t
pathways), or did the injury damage the brain, which responded by sendin=
g a
signal to the cochlea (via efferent pathways)? As you say, that question=
is
still very much open, but it would definitely repay some attention. Andr=
ew.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Andrew Bell Research School of Bi=
ology
(RSB) The Australian National University Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia T=
: +61
2 6125 5145 F: +61 2 6125 3808 andrew.bell@xxxxxxxxxx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Further, tinnitus can also be
induced by head injury [6]. In > this case, it is possible that the inne=
r ear
is damaged and > this causes a peripheral type of tinnitus, which again =
is a
cochlear amplifier dysfunction. Until we can successfully > trace this
cause and develop methods such as cellular > regeneration possibly using=
stem
cells - we can tinker and > experiment using all sorts of procedures to =
quash
the > problem, but they will never be as sophisticated as actually >
repairing the biology. > > > > [6] @ARTICLE{ceranic:1998, > author =3D
{Ceranic, B.J. and Prasher, D.K. and Raglan, E. > and Luxon, L.M.}, > =
title
=3D {{Tinnitus after head injury: evidence from > otoacoustic emissions}},=
>
journal =3D {Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery \& Psychiatry}, > year =3D
{1998}, > volume =3D {65}, > pages =3D {523--529}, > number =3D {4}, >
publisher =3D {BMJ} > } >
=20
--B_3337799571_4462796
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charset="ISO-8859-1"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: SOAEs and tinnitus</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>I sto=
pped doing OAE research in the late 80’s, but the accepted statistics =
then was that the 2x2 matrix of Tinnitus-y-or-n vs. SOAO-y-or-n had 4 almost=
equal cells. Has this statistic changed indicating now a significant correl=
ation?<BR>
<BR>
-Pierre<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 10/7/09 7:11 PM, "Brian Gygi" <bgygi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:<B=
R>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
The problem is that there are also people (e.g., myself) who have tinnitus =
but exhibit no SOAEs. Further, SOAE's don't really "sound" l=
ike tinnitus - there are several different "sounds" of tinnitus, s=
uchas ringing, "crickets" and very rarely a low frequency hum. &nb=
sp;I have crickets myself. This is the problem, as perviously stated, =
with grouping all disorders that kind of behave like tinnitus under one head=
ing, when they might have several different etiologies.<BR>
<BR>
Brian <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Tahoma=
">-----Original Message-----<BR>
<B>From:</B> Andrew Bell [<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.bell@xxxxxxxxxx]";>mailto:a=
ndrew.bell@xxxxxxxxxx]</a><BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 7, 2009 12:43 AM<BR>
<B>To:</B> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: Technique can pinpoint tinnitus<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Matt and list: Thanks for poi=
nter to Ceranic et al (1998), a paper which gives clear evidence that sponta=
neous otoacoustic emissions (SOAEs) and tinnitus are closely related. If SOA=
Es sound like tinnitus and behave like tinnitus, isn't it likely that they a=
re (in some respect) tinnitus? If we are aiming to pinpoint tinnitus, then S=
OAEs offer the most direct tool, and Ceranic et al. support this idea. Their=
Table 5 shows that patients with head injury and tinnitus displayed 4.4 SOA=
Es per ear, compared to 1.7 with normals and 0.25 with those having head inj=
ury without tinnitus. So did the head injury damage the cochlea and generate=
a tinnitus sensation (via afferent pathways), or did the injury damage the =
brain, which responded by sending a signal to the cochlea (via efferent path=
ways)? As you say, that question is still very much open, but it would defin=
itely repay some attention. Andrew. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A=
ndrew Bell Research School of Biology (RSB) The Australian National Universi=
ty Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia T: +61 2 6125 5145 F: +61 2 6125 3808 andre=
w.bell@xxxxxxxxxx ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Further, =
tinnitus can also be induced by head injury [6]. In > this case, it is po=
ssible that the inner ear is damaged and > this causes a peripheral type =
of tinnitus, which again is a > cochlear amplifier dysfunction. Until we =
can successfully > trace this cause and develop methods such as cellular =
> regeneration possibly using stem cells - we can tinker and > experim=
ent using all sorts of procedures to quash the > problem, but they will n=
ever be as sophisticated as actually > repairing the biology. > > &=
gt; > [6] @ARTICLE{ceranic:1998, > author =3D {Ceranic, B.J.=
and Prasher, D.K. and Raglan, E. > and Luxon, L.M.}, > ti=
tle =3D {{Tinnitus after head injury: evidence from > otoacoustic emissions=
}}, > journal =3D {Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery \& Ps=
ychiatry}, > year =3D {1998}, > volume =3D {65}, &=
gt; pages =3D {523--529}, > number =3D {4}, > &nbs=
p; publisher =3D {BMJ} > } > <BR>
</FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verda=
na, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>
</FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verda=
na, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>
</FONT></SPAN>
</BODY>
</HTML>
--B_3337799571_4462796--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 21:23:36 -0400
From: Jim Ballas <james.ballas@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Technique can pinpoint tinnitus
Another cause of tinnitus is a Vestibular Schwannoma (Acoustic=20
Neuroma). In my case the tinnitus, together with partial unilateral=20
hearing loss, was the first indication of the tumor. This cause affects=20
the third site, the auditory pathway, where M=F8ller says abnormal neura=
l=20
activity can be causing tinnitus. So IMHO, classifying mechanisms of=20
tinnitus as either peripheral or central, while better than one=20
mechanism, is still a simplification.
Jim Ballas
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:30:39 -0400
From: Didier Depireux <depireux@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Technique can pinpoint tinnitus
It's hard to form an opinion from a release from a PR office. But a
lot of papers on imaging and/or treatment of tinnitus neglect to
mention the etiology of the tinnitus. One can acquire permanent
tinnitus from drugs like quinine, cancer drugs like most of the
-platins, noise exposure, blunt trauma, or related to the onset of
M=3DE9ni=3DE8re's. While the behavioral manifestation is the same, ther=
e is no
good argument that all these causes lead to the same underlying
changes in the auditory pathway. So any paper that claims to have
found that a "Technique can pinpoint tinnitus" is bound to be met with
some measure of healthy doubt.
To quote Aage M=F8ller in his "Tinnitus: presence and future" paper,
It is unfortunate that the same name, tinnitus, is used for so many
different disorders. This hampers both understanding of the
pathophysiology of tinnitus and the treatment because it implies that
it is possible to find _the_ cause of tinnitus and _the_ treatment for
tinnitus.
He goes on to say:
Disorders of the vestibular system was earlier in the same category,
but the introduction of specific names such as benign positional
paroxysmal nystagmus (BPPN) and disabling positional vertigo (DPV) has
greatly improved treatment and understanding of the causes of various
symptoms from the vestibular system.
In related news, some Irish teenagers have gotten a 99% cure rate by
playing to tinnitus sufferers a "low hum [that] might straighten out
those bent cochlear hairs"
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=3D3Dteen-inven=
tors-f=3D
ight-tinnitus-09-09-28
Didier
Didier A Depireux depireux@xxxxxxxxx
Inst. for Systems Research http://theearlab.org
School of Engineering Ph: 410-925-6546
U Md College Park MD 20742 USA
Adjunct, BioEngineering
=20
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:30:39 -0400
From: Didier Depireux <depireux@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Technique can pinpoint tinnitus
It's hard to form an opinion from a release from a PR office. But a
lot of papers on imaging and/or treatment of tinnitus neglect to
mention the etiology of the tinnitus. One can acquire permanent
tinnitus from drugs like quinine, cancer drugs like most of the
-platins, noise exposure, blunt trauma, or related to the onset of
M=3DE9ni=3DE8re's. While the behavioral manifestation is the same, there =
is no
good argument that all these causes lead to the same underlying
changes in the auditory pathway. So any paper that claims to have
found that a "Technique can pinpoint tinnitus" is bound to be met with
some measure of healthy doubt.
To quote Aage M=3DF8ller in his "Tinnitus: presence and future" paper,
It is unfortunate that the same name, tinnitus, is used for so many
different disorders. This hampers both understanding of the
pathophysiology of tinnitus and the treatment because it implies that
it is possible to find _the_ cause of tinnitus and _the_ treatment for
tinnitus.
He goes on to say:
Disorders of the vestibular system was earlier in the same category,
but the introduction of specific names such as benign positional
paroxysmal nystagmus (BPPN) and disabling positional vertigo (DPV) has
greatly improved treatment and understanding of the causes of various
symptoms from the vestibular system.
In related news, some Irish teenagers have gotten a 99% cure rate by
playing to tinnitus sufferers a "low hum [that] might straighten out
those bent cochlear hairs"
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=3D3Dteen-invento=
rs-f=3D
ight-tinnitus-09-09-28
Didier
Didier A Depireux depireux@xxxxxxxxx
Inst. for Systems Research http://theearlab.org
School of Engineering Ph: 410-925-6546
U Md College Park MD 20742 USA
Adjunct, BioEngineering
------------------------------
End of AUDITORY Digest - 6 Oct 2009 to 7 Oct 2009 (#2009-230)
*************************************************************