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Re: sometimes behave so strangely



Dear Xavier,
i hit on it by chance,
but I believe that if you would start with a spoken word and àbstact`it to a tone sequence , 
you would have more chance to observe it.
Leon
> 
> van: Xavier Rodet <Xavier.Rodet@xxxxxxxx>
> datum: 2006/12/14 Thu AM 11:25:31 MET
> aan: Leon van Noorden <leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxxx>
> onderwerp: Re: sometimes behave so strangely
> 
> This would interest very much our composers .
> Do you have an exemple or how to quickly make one ?
> 
> 
> Leon van Noorden wrote:
> > Dear Diane, dear list,
> > 
> > if this is an example of speach heard as music, I have also noticed the opposite effect, namely music heard as speech. 
> > 
> > At least, repeated tone sequences of a few different pitches, not to far apart, with the appropriate durations, can evake suddenly the impression of a spoken word repeated over and over again. It can even happen that the word changes into another word.
> > 
> > Leon van Noorden
> > 
> > .
> > 
> > 
> >> Dear Al (and List),
> >>
> >> You raise some very interesting points. I don't think that the  
> >> explanation lies in semantic satiation, because the words (vowels and  
> >> consonants) are still heard very clearly, even though the phrase  
> >> appears to be sung. I do agree, though, that the answer lies, at  
> >> least in part,  in the pitch modulations - though exactly what  
> >> happens isn't clear. At the ASA meeting I presented an illustration  
> >> showing the pitch tracing of my original rendition, and that of a  
> >> subject repeating what she heard after multiple  repetitions. The  
> >> contours of all  the syllables were flattened in the subject's  
> >> rendition, and it's my strong impression that people literally begin  
> >> to hear the contours  as flattened. I'd be happy to send this  
> >> illustration to anyone who is interested.
> >>
> >> You also raise the point that the transformation of the phrase from  
> >> speech to song endures - so that when people listen again to the full  
> >> sentence, I appear to burst into song. This , to my mind, is a  
> >> particularly  puzzling aspect of the effect. People have told me that  
> >> the effect is still present, unattenuated, even months  later - and  
> >> this was certainly my experience. As you point out, perhaps the most  
> >> important question raised by this demonstration is why people don't  
> >> always hear speech as song. After all,  the vowel components of words  
> >> are harmonic complexes - yet  the pitch characteristics of speech are  
> >> usually suppressed in perception.
> >>
> >> The composer Mussorggsky wrote in a letter to Rimsky-Korsokoff:
> >>
> >> 'whatever speech I hear, no matter who is speaking ... my brain  
> >> immediately sets to working out a musical exposition for this  
> >> speech' . On listening to his music  - particularly his song cycles   
> >> - one can deliberately flip one's perception to a different mode, and  
> >> hear, very convincingly, the intonation of Russian speech. I've often  
> >> wondered whether Mussorgsky may have heard all speech as we hear  
> >> 'sometimes behave so strangely' after repetition.
> >>
> >> All best,
> >>
> >> Diana
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >> Professor Diana Deutsch
> >> Department of Psychology
> >> University of California, San Diego
> >> 9500 Gilman Dr. #0109
> >> La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA
> >>
> >> 858-453-1558 (tel)
> >> 858-453-4763 (fax)
> >>
> >> http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch
> >> http://www.philomel.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Dec 12, 2006, at 10:08 PM, Al Bregman wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Diana (and List),
> >>>
> >>> Yes indeed! The repetitions do seem to comvert spoken speech to  
> >>> singing.
> >>>
> >>> I wonder whether your phenomenon isn't related to that of "semantic
> >>> satiation", in which a word that is repeated over and over tends to
> >>> lose its meaning and to be perceived as a sequence of sounds.  The
> >>> meaning is not lost in an all-or-nothing fashion, but tends to get
> >>> weaker and weaker.  (See
> >>> .http://www.soc.hawaii.edu/leonj/499s99/yamauchi/semantic.htm)
> >>>
> >>> In the case of your demonstration there is a strongly modulated F0
> >>> (intonation contour) over the phrase.  It may be that when we hear
> >>> ordinary speech, which contains pitch modulation (an acoustic
> >>> phenomenon that is present in both music and speech), the speech and
> >>> musical schemas are both evoked and compete with one another.
> >>> However, when the cues for speech are dominant (i.e., continuous and
> >>> non-repeating modulation of F0, without pausing on particular
> >>> pitches), the musical interpretation is suppressed.  But when the
> >>> phrase is repeated many times, a satiation and weakening of the speech
> >>> interpretation occurs (as in semantic satiation), thereby allowing the
> >>> musical interpretation to become more dominant.  Of course it doesn't
> >>> become completely dominant, or else we wouldn't hear speech at all.
> >>> Rather there is an intermediate form of activation in which we hear
> >>> both speech and music (i.e., singing).
> >>>
> >>> In your demonstration, immediately after hearing the phase as melodic,
> >>> when we listen to the whole sentence again, we still maintain an
> >>> association between the phrase and the melodic interpretation.  I
> >>> wonder how long this aftereffect lasts.
> >>>
> >>> Your demonstration raises the fascinating question of why we don't
> >>> ALWAYS hear speech as singing.  It may be that persons with absolute
> >>> pitch come closer to this than the rest of us do, or at least can turn
> >>> it on when they want to.  A number of years ago, I asked Poppy Crum, a
> >>> graduate student of mine who had absolute pitch, whether she could
> >>> assign musical note values to my intonation pattern as I said a
> >>> phrase.  She replied that this was easy, and gave me a sequence of
> >>> note names.
> >>>
> >>> Whatever the explanation of your phenomenon, it is truly interesting,
> >>> and raises some challenging questions.  I hope you yourself, or some
> >>> of our colleagues, will be able to shed light on the phenomenon
> >>> through a series of analytical experiments.
> >>>
> >>> All the best,
> >>>
> >>> Al
> >>>
> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Albert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor
> >>> Psychology Department, McGill University
> >>> 1205 Docteur Penfield Avenue
> >>> Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1.
> >>>     Tel: (514) 484-2592, (514) 398-6103
> >>>     Fax: (514) 484-2592
> >>> www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html
> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 12/12/06, Diana Deutsch <ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>> Dear list,
> >>>>
> >>>>  I've had a number of requests for the sound demonstration I   
> >>>> presented at
> >>>> the recent ASA meeting in Honolulu,  in which the spoken phrase  
> >>>> 'sometimes
> >>>> behave so strangely'   following several repetitions, appears  
> >>>> convincingly
> >>>> to be  sung rather than spoken - though there is no musical  
> >>>> context and no
> >>>> physical transformation of the sound. This demonstration, together  
> >>>> with
> >>>> spoken commentary, is on my CD 'Phantom Words and Other Curiosities'
> >>>> (available from Philomel Records - http://www.philomel.com).
> >>>>
> >>>> The sound demonstration is also posted  on the website:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://philomel.com/phantom_words/description.html#sometimes
> >>>>
> >>>> and it's described in the booklet accompanying the CD, which is  
> >>>> posted at:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://philomel.com/phantom_words/booklet/
> >>>>
> >>>> Happy Holidays!
> >>>>
> >>>> Diana Deutsch
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Xavier Rodet -- rod@xxxxxxxx --  33 (0)1 44 78 48 68, Fax: 33 (0)1 44 78 15 40
> Responsable de l'Equipe Analyse/Synthese - Head of the Analysis/Synthesis Team
> IRCAM 1 place Stravinsky 75004 Paris FRANCE --  W3 site : http://www.ircam.fr/
> W3 site of Analysis/Synth. Team: http://www.ircam.fr/equipes/analyse-synthese/
> 
> 
>